Before becoming a PPC whiz, Gabriel initially failed on Amazon, heavily, then he built a strong brand in the baby niche and sold out. He's now a member of the BetterAMS team and focuses primarily on Amazon Advertising, supporting brands doing more than $200k a month on the marketplace.
Before becoming a PPC whiz, Gabriel initially failed on Amazon, heavily, then he built a strong brand in the baby niche and sold out. He's now a member of the BetterAMS team and focuses primarily on Amazon Advertising, supporting brands doing more than $200k a month on the marketplace.
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In this episode we discuss:
[0:00:00] George: Welcome to It's always Day one. My name is George Reid, a former Amazonian turned Amazon consultant. Each week on the podcast you're gonna hear in this tree expert Brando on Amazon employees share their answers to the basic yet fundamental questions. You should be asking yourself about your Amazon business. Now, let's jump in. Hello, Gabriel Caceros. And welcome to the podcast. Really excited to have you on. Obviously had destiny on the other day from Better M s. I know you're another part of the team over there. Really excited. Kind of dig in a little bit into Amazon advertising, but before we get into any questions would be great if we could get a a 62nd overview. Who you are, what you do, How you got into this Amazon world? Um, then we can kick up.
[0:00:46] Gabriel Caceros: Awesome. We are very happy to be here today on DA 60 seconds. While I've been in the house in space for early in the last 5 to 6 years, I started as a seller. I started building a brand around the baby Nish and I had a successful exit at the beginning of this year. Ah, ofsome downs like every business. We got an initial offer on 2018. We rejected it on. I learned a lot of stuff because I ended up selling the business in a different price that I expected. But it was a successful exit since 20 King Ibn bulb in Bahamas and advertised inside of things of being managing brand. Sean's probably or over the last two years and recently doing better, immense team to just, uh, make sure you get the best version of myself out there and just what's
[0:01:40] George: interesting. You said you got the offering 2018 you stole sold at the start of this year. Do you still find yourself just out of interest? Kind of like checking in and seeing how they're doing, you know, looking at the tools and being like they're doing a riot. They groan it since I was there, or
[0:01:57] Gabriel Caceros: I think it's a possibility in the neat not the near future, because I think I'm choosing the path. Yeah, we're a career that I really like and I really love doing, which is just scaling advertising. Ah, across different accounts and I love it like I wake up very excited in the morning. I think people value that. You know everything that he bolts on FDA business.
[0:02:24] George: So Yeah, but my question was more on you Obviously sold the baby niche business. Do you ever find yourself still looking at it and going How is the brand getting on now? Since you've sold, it is there's something kind of like I'm intrigued to know how how they're doing.
[0:02:40] Gabriel Caceros: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But probably we have still calls once per week. Just two country. Yeah, because we signed a contract on on mid March. So, you know, there are things on the contract that you could do in this pot where you need to, you know, give some time to the new owners to make sure that they are doing things the right way that they're ordering enough inventory, for example, seasonality and all of that stuff. Yeah, like one call per week one to our call for a week, just to make sure everything is in order.
[0:03:13] George: And that's interesting. And like, if we move slightly over to the kind of how we look at brands now and I'm sure you're obviously monitoring your brand that will continue to do monitor that brand that you've built. But when you're looking at new brands, which is something you're focusing a lot more now. What are some other things you're initially looking toe? Analyse. When you get a brand new band, obviously you're working at battery AMS, you get them on board. What are you immediately looking at? When when you're about to start work With that,
[0:03:43] Gabriel Caceros: I would say, You know, Komal hope how much time and energy people are putting on their creatives just because now that we have sponsor brands PDO sponsor brands, Custom image beta people need to have a very attractive ah, the sign or image to make sure that we will get a huge CR and I will come back into more conversions and more sales on the other. On the business side, I think the more margin a product hot, the easier it is to scale because you have to spend thousands of dollars in marketing to make sure that first your product's gonna show up and sinking, your product's gonna rank right. You wantto this business way, you need to probably I don't know, all okay, $10,000 for cost of goods for for for your products and then another $10,000 for ranking. It's just how it is now on DH. Managing all that is is that I think I think those things are the most important,
[0:04:45] George: as you obviously said that like a lot off effort and energy, and I think that's such a key term, like the energy that goes into it, creating the different content around at types. So what you're referring to is kind of the different when you say you got those banner ads at the moment. Obviously, you've got the option to add like a backdrop to the ad. Is that right? I think that's one option. Now we can have, like, a nice big image on one of those display out, and then obviously you've got the video. So you're saying that the brand that are doing that they're either excite you? Mohr. You think they've got more opportunity just because they're putting the energy
[0:05:20] Gabriel Caceros: in? I think they have a lot, a lot, a lot more opportunity. They recognised that having good creative this I just get PPC can leverage their sales announcer Um,
[0:05:32] George: that's a that's that's across the board, right? If that they're putting the energy intake reading really creative ad types. I'm guessing they're also utilising that content, which goes into their their listings as well, right?
[0:05:46] Gabriel Caceros: Yeah, because there's a huge difference of doing a video yourself and maybe spending 23 hours of time versus doing it, you know, with a with an agency or with a guy that knows what key where she's going and spending $500,500. But you're getting backed up money If if the ad's gonna before, well,
[0:06:05] George: yeah, that that's so true. And I think what's far for the dollars is still in all that investment. It's looking out what return you, Khun, potentially get. And obviously people are a different stages. Know some of the brand you're working, whether doing 200 grand a month plus. But for those smaller brands, you may seem at $500 for a video is very expensive, but I think the video is you can be multi purpose is well right. I know Amazon are continuously releasing like here is kind of video ads which sit inside the search results Big thumbs up. Very exciting. I don't think you need to go create a video just for that. It's also why I'm going to use it on my instagram. I'm going to use on my landing page. Somebody's my storefront on when you use it across multiple things. So that investment off, for argument's sake, $500. How What's the return? It is not just gonna be a return on the ads. It's gonna be returned on how it helps convert elsewhere as well. Right?
[0:07:03] Gabriel Caceros: It's true. Yeah, I had it. I live it myself. We record obedience on 2018 and the beginning ofthe 2019 and I remember the thing back then was putting the video into releasing, you know, ah, made up. You had a bead on your lease team, then the video on your reviews, then the video on your storefront eso You just have to adopt the same video in different ways. We have had cases when a mother branch's Media West release people were recording medias on their cell phone and then just making sure it wass he could match the guidelines of monster grants video. I'm just testing it that way, and he would perform great because it was so new back then, which is probably 23 months ago. And now that we're talking about a sponsor brands speedy and specific. If someone is not running sponsor brands here yet, I can say they're meeting a lot because they converse rate off. The AC unit in particular, is huge. Like normally, we see another agency like 10 to 15% conversion rate, 20% product up the perform a lot better but sponsor brands speedier, combining all the data. It's like 37 to 40% conversion rate. Um, that's not retreat
[0:08:15] George: wild. So 37 40% conversion rate on sponsor brand video ads right now,
[0:08:20] Gabriel Caceros: Yeah, yeah.
[0:08:23] George: Is that from any Your product is taking an already very successful product that's working really well and convert him well itself and then just adding, have a lighter fuel to the fire when you add the video, I didn't know
[0:08:38] Gabriel Caceros: what we did was that I was preparing a webinar like, 11 or two months ago. What I did is that I pulled all of the data that I could from sponsor brand Speedo campaigns. So I combine all of that data on the result wass that the average conversion rate off all of those complaints was 42%. And we compared that to there are other agency were call overeating. Wait on. Turns out they're conversion rate. Their average conversion rate. Wass, I think 43%. So it's like it seems it seems to be there once you're in a good spot running your mask. Video, I guess. What are
[0:09:13] George: the concerns? I need immediately jumps out at me. I'm not in the appetite of space and a CZ, much as you are, but the cost ofthe producing the ads obviously high. But what kind of the cost for clicks Life? I'm guessing there are a lot lot higher. So you need the conversion on the actual page as well,
[0:09:31] Gabriel Caceros: right? Yeah. It's funny, because the average gosper click on this. The specific got unit itself around 90 cents to a dollar. You're not gonna be two or $3 but but you don't get less than 90 cents you. I think you won't ever get less than And since I don't know why. Because, for example, on sponsor this puzzle display you get like two cents three cents four cents on these particular Arab unity, you can get listening sense. Maybe because you know where they're at this place. It's on the fourth row heavily right now that I've been down this invested version.
[0:10:10] George: Okay, Andi, with regards to what do you think people's focus should be right now on Amazon advertising? Surely it's not just focusing on the new stuff that come out like video. It's always so doing the basics. Well, right?
[0:10:22] Gabriel Caceros: Yeah, absolutely. I suppose our products are still showing above everything and making sure you're going to sponsor products and protecting your product. Detailed pages. I think it's It's the basic self famous advertising
[0:10:39] George: That's quite interesting that you say about protecting your detail page. So I think most product ladies I land on they don't play the defensive game well enough, in particular on the rampage, like you've worked hard to get a customer onto your product detail page. Then you have someone else sat there writing from Witham, and you could unload the works than good money getting them there, and someone else could be placing an ad right on your page. And they've got an extra 30 40 50 reviews on their price. Point is a slight bit lower, and it's actually, but I like the idea of the product, and that's why I'm here. But that one looks like it's pretty much the same. So how important is that right now to really reinforce playing defensive? Because some people are so against it from the conversations that I have?
[0:11:30] Gabriel Caceros: Yeah, when I when I talked of grants, I let them know that as of now, you know, 50 50 to 60% of people when they went to search for a product to goto Anson, right? That's that should be first on top of their hooks. If I If I'm thinking about you know, protein or something like that, the first thing I'll do is just go go search for my protein announcement, probably unless saying it's every time. But if you're investing on billboards on the streets, if you're investing on on TV ads, if you're investing on anything that's outside. Allison to get people to search your product in Amazon, why wouldn't you protect your product? Detailed page If if you're you know you're your, your buyer is likely to be taken away from you by another competitive. That's smarter than you, and it's cutting its cutting. You Ah, I'm going home the latest on one of the latest steps, which is, I mean, the product to the cart. Um and
[0:12:29] George: that's I was gonna say, Yeah, that's so important. Obviously, as we encouraged a lot of people now to look at driving traffic from our families in and that was actually my next question is well on. That is something people are really doubling down on. I think the better brands are looking at not just Amazon. Advertising is the traffic source. They're looking at how we can send it from Facebook, how we can send it from my email list. So how important do you think that is? Right now, too? Split up your your energy, your focus, your efforts from just looking at Amazon advertising toe also looking other channels. How important is that in your mind?
[0:13:11] Gabriel Caceros: Ah, about so that's a good question. I can. I could probably answer Dad as a seller, but I was I was always comfort and that I should just be best a lot more money into arms in traffic than outside traffic. That's what I did as a salary, like in my experience, that's the one plate. I would say it's important that you have some sort of loyalty programme with your customers because Amazon is getting competitive over time. And you need to make sure whether you have a management follow up sequence or some sort of loyalty programme with your product inserts, sort of they arms industry competitive or it's just so big. You don't think you can figure products there. You eat leaves have a solid base of customers that you can rely on to launch new products and all that stuff on their there. I mean, I would say the 100% of your advertising bodies right now on Amazon maybe set 10% and tests right as Google lots, for example, or test. I don't know painters. That's if your nations related to that just to play and see how it could fall. If you would allocate your body that way.
[0:14:24] George: I think that's a really good point. Like, if you are over index would be the term our Jews on one type of advertising one channel like like Amazon. You always have that single point of failure. Amazon appetising. You suddenly get another competitor, come in on. They sell this very similar product and they're being really aggressive. That one channel of yours where you're putting all your money and effort and energy to get better and better at suddenly become I'm nowhere near was effective in your r o. I can. I'm decreased significantly circus. It's while you are doing well on. Perhaps it's doing really well on Amazon. Appetising, no becoming reliant on it. Thinking about Okay, what else can we do? Teo? Build traffic. And that is exactly right. Like communicating with our existing customers. And it comes down to Are we collecting emails, etcetera?
[0:15:18] Gabriel Caceros: Yeah, that's the one. Isn't that's what I'm most visible. Me, too, Because we started with sponsor product for only 5 10 years ago. It able to sponsor product sponsor brands Sponsor displaying now you can target aren't enough arms in traffic which sponsored his play. I know this storey just on Amazon, not just necessarily on Amazon nuts. Another is the S P two, which is not available yet to everybody. But it's another way to get customers from outside honest and bring them to Amazon and make sure they re purchase or reorder or they get into a subscribing save programme. I'm just kind of don't making sure they do that to make sure that people don't jump to test water things outside. But I think it's worth testing everything. You don't know where where you're where you're normally normal customer is starting to get together. Products it's worth. It's worth a shot
[0:16:08] George: on with, obviously sponsor displays and you to sell a central right now in terms of allowing you to talk people off Amazon. Her perhaps browsed certain products on Amazon from the early kind of testing off that on the seller side of the business you seeing that's working really well right now,
[0:16:28] Gabriel Caceros: I'll see you have to be smart and how to use it. People would normally, you know, said probably an audience or a each category on Let It Run. And since it's the spring everywhere, they spent a lot of money and they pop, pausing the at ah, not a sponsor displayed. Product targeting assist makes a lot more sense to narrow down and refined the targeting of the custom off the aces. You want to show you're up initiating with your with your own agents and then jumping into competitors. Racing's where you have a competitive bench. Um and it works. I mean, we have great results with sponsor display product hurrying, but you need to give the at some time you need to make sure you're protecting bowl your products and attacking our our people's products.
[0:17:14] George: When you say time is that figuratively give it a week, give it two weeks or is it? Give it the time to get enough data in, like for someone Go. I want to start this today. I like the idea of it. Are they thinking okay, wait like 1000 clicks or wait, Let's spend a certain amount. Or is it? Give it a week. Give it two weeks to build up that data.
[0:17:36] Gabriel Caceros: Yeah, I think it depends. So going, going back to the fundamentals while we want to do it's protected product. Detailed pages. We need to make sure our at is showing up and make sure it's such a weight off and generating sales, making sure no one else is showing up. So if that's gonna cost us, I don't know $100 per week, but no one else is showing up there. Okay, that's a cause. We should probably assume we don't get it if we don't want to get lower conversion rates on all that stuff that could probably last a month. You know, until you see him that your your conversion rate is increasing week over week because buyers are not are not getting distracted seeing in our products, that'll be two fundamental about in terms ofthe outspending clean. Yeah, you see the word. Optimising it. If you're making sure that your position there the entire day maybe not. Maybe it's worth writing out a 50% a C E o. S or 40% of us. But you're protecting your product. Detailed page. If you're targeting competitors, probably. There are a lot more people targeting the main competitor thing that in the category. So there it makes a lot more sense to go a little further on the fundamentals and go like, Okay, this is not performing well. We need to optimise the bits. We will probably show up. I don't know 3 to 4 hours in the day, we're probably get 12 sales, but it's better because we're not gonna waste this much money on. We're still protecting the outer part of the business that's important, which is your own private vigil teaches
[0:19:04] George: you mentioned there about optimising those bids and it's something. Discuss briefly the deaths and do the day she fell. It was one of the biggest areas to be successful mammas and is really doubling down on bid management. So for someone perhaps just getting started, or even if that they being running ads for some time, but they don't fully understand what's going on. Um, what's the best thing that they could be doing to make big management a little bit easier?
[0:19:31] Gabriel Caceros: I would say Step one done. Jump into different dynamic beating strategies. Stick to down on Lee until used until we understand how it works. Ah, because if you're stick to down only in the beginning you can play with a cost per click, which is the SP Anybody by clicks, right to get your average cost per click on play. They're like playing, playing where you shouldn't wait. Where should where. Your job it should be based on your CBC. Just lower the bits that way because you have your new cell, you get you need to gather a lot of data on that data cost Mama, you don't have relevance, and Amazon you have to get that relevance. With more sales and more orders. The way you get that is making sure you're just showing off. So you get more. Ah, more sales than your conversions and organic ranking starts to go up.
[0:20:25] George: Yeah, yeah, that makes that makes sense. So that Step Board is obviously focusing on just bidding down and monitoring the crossbow Click. Is there any kind of software that you think helps with this? Or is a lot of this based on just pulling data into into excel
[0:20:42] Gabriel Caceros: before for somebody new selling anonymous? And I believe that no silvery is requiring unless they have 1000 excuse, they could get that done with, you know, being in company manager, all corporations if they want to just do things that scale. But if you're new into space, you need to get used to make you sure how it works and seeing how it hold votes over time before doing some for their people that jump at this offer right away. Crawley. They're not ready for the local company mentor. Your work well, they're good software tools out there, but I would say learn how it works first, Lember bulk operations first. Then, if it makes sense, jump jump to the software. If you wantto older or with an agency, you wantto automata.
[0:21:30] George: I think that's certainly miss. Take a lot of people, perhaps looking, looking at software and going that's gonna help me get to what my goals quicker and easier. It's gonna be less work. I'll go buy that software for $100 on DH. I'll just plug it in and then I can kick back and probably pour myself a margarita and we're sorted here. I think that's certainly a common thing that people think that software is going to do. But you're You're absolutely right if you understand both operations and get your head around if you are managing it yourself. Obviously, it's a different discussion of whether or not you should manage it yourself. But GE understanding bulk operations on always say like your software's only gonna be as good as the person operating it right. If you don't understand it, there's not much point in having this software because they can give you a little tips and stuff like that. But ultimately you need to understand what's going on and understand your own personal goals because the software doesn't understand your girl was Understand what Page Wannabe ranked on and how many months and what else is going on outside of the business, right?
[0:22:41] Gabriel Caceros: Absolutely. People have bad experiences with slop. Worse because some words have, you know, some rules said for somewhere, Ah, that got re Souls got great resource the first time, but that was probably based on dot products conversion rate dot products click through rate that plot that products prize. I mean, they don't said, you know, costume rules for their particular needs, Whether it's their price points, their conversion rate, they're CDR. They're they're not gonna get good results that way. And I'll tell you something on campaign manager with its 2020 and you're still in half conversion rate for Compan campaign manager. We know how conversion remove my product and it's important. Meth freaks, too. Take decisions based on data if you want to scale or if you want to caught budgets, you know we have the data get there. We'll have click through rate on the bulk ships yet, so it's data that we should have, and I was like a man when your when you don't need both, I'll make sure you out two columns and conversely, just to make sure, just just so just so you see what's going on, what's going on in real time? That
[0:23:54] George: makes a lot of sense. So at the moment, what
[0:23:57] Gabriel Caceros: do you think
[0:23:58] George: some of the biggest mistakes are then, that people are people are making on Amazon
[0:24:03] Gabriel Caceros: on the BBC's item or
[0:24:06] George: well, you know, I had written down on advertising on that. That would make more sense. But perhaps there's something else. You're seeing a lot where people are fucking up
[0:24:17] Gabriel Caceros: on the BBC side, I think, starting with a lot of cures when you're launching a new product. Ah, you spend a lot of money. You're not putting putting the money where on the cures that you should have saw most of the budget. Uh, I would say that's a big mistake, because people get excited. They want to rent for thousands of you, or they should probably start with five. And on these five should not be, you know, the highest volume highest competition cured. They probably should be that most relevant. I'm a good bullion, but not high balling keywords I'll see. That's a huge mistake and then probably they're not focusing on, you know, the cost of her in terms of reviews in this other side. I think people there, their products that have 3000 reviews and will you scroll down? You see, all of the top reviews are one start reviews. It doesn't make sense like people are going to jump off. That is, at least in because he doesn't have it, doesn't have a solid base of customers that's reviewing the product the right way on. People are not happy about it unless they have more reviews. So I'll say those things are very important. I see it a lot on
[0:25:34] George: work. I think on the review topic that there's so many different things we can be doing to acquire them. But I think still people are not necessary folks on those areas, and it's kind of been a bit of a topic as well over the last few weeks. Speak to lots of different guests off where your focus should be on it comes back to what I touched earlier on about If you are managing out yourself, is that always the best use of your time because you're spending so much looking at big management or whatever the case. Maybe you're not looking at some of the basics of the operational things off. Do we have review process set up? But we're working really, really hard and with spending money on ads sending traffic to the page have we then got a nice system set up All of our customers has a higher percentage of them going ahead of leaving a review on ensuring it a good review. And that being said on the good review side of things, What were you previously doing yourself on DH? What are you kind of recommending now? I know it's not. Your area of expertise is much, but even when you're chatting tea Clyde, what are you saying? OK, here's a good way to foster A. When I say good review, I don't necessarily a positive I mean, like an in depth, juicy review, which is actually going to help customers get over the light.
[0:27:00] Gabriel Caceros: Yeah, you have to have first a good product, right? You need a product. That's what's really adding while you are alive. It is very hard on. As we applied 100 different techniques. The second things surprised her customer. I mean, whether you're sending a mouse or the keyword, that's this bit too stuff I have in front of me Jeep that final sentence and they send a case or Santa sent an extra gift on. I believe that product inserts plan important game when you are when you were selling anonymous and you don't need to shit, you know, like, ah, lot of paper. Ah, card can make a difference. You know, a golden card coming can make a difference. You are a winner. Car can make a difference. You can make a difference because people will take a look at that. They'll probably be surprised that they received something they were not expecting. That's why I talked initially about surprising the customer with something extra, something that can cost you in China 2050 cents. But it's going to support your customer in a way that will go like always, and it includes these for that. That's how you get that long, hard ground reviews on. There are blacks had stopped that we shouldn't talk about. I'm going, I'm not going to talk about, but that's the legitimate way to do it on a little bit more in the long term.
[0:28:25] George: Yeah, I mean, I just I summarise it is you're invoking an emotion. You're getting them to feel something that they weren't necessarily expecting to feel when they're opening up that parcel and as a result of that, when they all right arm or encouraged to go on even review. But even if they are then leaving a review, the writing with a bit more emotion and passion, wrath and just it is a good product for star on that. That's kind of how you get around that. And while we're on the topic kind of creating because I think what reviews do do is help you build the flywheel that that we talk a lot about our on Amazon. So what one thing would you be doing right now to help create sustainable success on the Amazon marketplace?
[0:29:11] Gabriel Caceros: Sustainable success in them is a marketplace. First of all, you have well on the advertised inside. You'll need a solid campaign structure that to himself, where you are, what you are attacking. You know whether he's branded keywords, whether he's competitive keyword sweaters. Category Q words. Ah, on the other side. You need a whale, a way to get in communication with your customers, whether he's manager, whether he's email, whether he's, ah byproduct inserts, Stay going to your social media. Ah, and just making sure you're innovating. Like as you said, people come to us because they are sometimes so basic managing their people. See that they What do you want to do? It's jump off there and make sure they put time and energy into into developing new products. And long live the spirit police products you know faster than what they would doing everything on the room.
[0:30:04] George: Is that something you see quite a lot on dear the team members as well as better AMs off people are coming to you because they want that part of the business just be taken off them essentially, because Amazon advertising obviously is a lot of work, it creates a lot of energy, a lot of resource. If they're coming to you, they're passing that away. They don't have to think about that anymore. They've got the trust in you and allows them to think a lot more clearly like I have it myself when it comes to manage to Facebook appetising, and I took it on myself briefly a few months ago. Immediately pass it off because I noticed I'm not able to think about Yeah, anything else about growing the business because I'm messing around on Facebook, an area I'm not an expert in. It makes more sense for me to pay money and like a good chunk of money to get someone else to manage it. So I can continue to think about how we conserve our customers, how we can bring out better products, et cetera. Is that something you hear quite a lot off from from people you're working with?
[0:31:07] Gabriel Caceros: Every case is different. Every case is defender will let that have delegated their PC in the past. And now they're somehow struggling because the people that have been working with are not delivering good results based on the audience. We do like we get to see whole. They've been performing, even though ah, the BBC, wasin alligator, whether the PPC was delegated or not in the past were able to forecast how much we could help them, um, before even touching the account. So every case is different.
[0:31:38] George: I'm extent some accents on that that being said, then keeping the topic off outsourcing or getting someone else to deliver task. If you could hire just one person right now to help a brand, what would their skill set being? Why?
[0:31:54] Gabriel Caceros: So let's get it. Let's get it right. It's one guy humping and who he would, you know, hire one extra guy to help to operate the business.
[0:32:07] George: Let's say, for argument's sake, let's keep it nice and simple. You're one man band. You set up a brand. You really excited. It's going pretty well, but you need to hire one person to help you. What's the first thing you're thinking about? In terms of the skills that they need to help, you kind of take the next important step
[0:32:27] Gabriel Caceros: on whether is finding new products to launch an Amazon or doing, you know, thought like BBC or right imposed or developing a plus content. I think you need someone that can really dive into Key were research, and now you know how to categories work on Amazon Now to make sure you're going to get the most out of the Colin working with you s O. If these person on their stance. Amazon. Understand how cure research works and you give them the right tools to make sure they're developing. You know, good least ease. Good campaigns, good
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