If I have Amazon Advertising questions, Destaney is who I go to. She is the founder of BetterAMS, who I personally regard as the top Amazon Advertising agency in the space right now. She's truly a thought leader and a recommended follow for anyone looking to level up their PPC game.
If I have Amazon Advertising questions, Destaney is who I go to. She is the founder of BetterAMS, who I personally regard as the top Amazon Advertising agency in the space right now. She's truly a thought leader and a recommended follow for anyone looking to level up their PPC game.
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In this episode we discuss:
[0:00:00] George Welcome to It's always Day one. My name is George Reid, a former Amazonian turned Amazon consultant. Each week on the podcast you're gonna hear in this tree expert Brando on Amazon employees share their answers to the basic yet fundamental questions. You should be asking yourself about your Amazon business. Now, let's jump in. Hello. Desk on. Thank you so much for coming on to the podcast. First and foremost. How you doing today?
[0:00:26] Destaney Wishon Doing amazing, nice weather. Nothing to complain about. Going well,
[0:00:31] George Perfect. So, Johnny, give us a quick for those who don't know. Obviously, I'm familiar with you. We've spent time communicator of the last year or so plus and everyone in the Amazon world certainly aware of you because of your prowess on our links in but a 62nd overview club Who you are, what you do. How you got into this Amazon where it would be pretty nice for the listeners.
[0:00:53] Destaney Wishon Yeah, for sure. So my name is Dustin was Sean. I have been in Amazon advertising for four years now. Actually got started a full consulting company. It's failed extremely quick. And you know that in my time there I was managing Amazon advertising for some little largest brands on the platform. Since then, I transition to my role of co founder of better AMs where we focus primarily on scaling on platform Amazon advertising. 47 to 9 for your cellars.
[0:01:19] George You said that before, haven't you?
[0:01:21] Destaney Wishon Thank you
[0:01:24] George for that s o. I mentioned earlier today. Destiny is also being on the helium. 10 podcasts. I reckon you probably said that exact same script. What a couple of hours ago, In exactly the same kind of step by step.
[0:01:42] Destaney Wishon Yeah, it was a few days ago, I think, when I recorded that one. But I've been on, you know, around like 1 to 2 podcaster webinars a weeks like the last three months. So I'm quite a bit of practise at it. By
[0:01:55] George all rights should aim of today is to get a couple of different questions. I'd like to drill in some bad stuff, but then also some of them little bit different is the aim of our poor cost today. So questionable One. How do you initially analyse a brand? You're about to work with an Amazon,
[0:02:13] Destaney Wishon yet there's a few things that we look into whenever anyone reaches out to us. The biggest thing is the brand in the products themselves. I kind of always like coin this really corny, saying it's like Amazon advertising's not gonna make your product great. So sometimes we have people regionally like, Hey, things aren't going amazing. We think you could take us to the next level. It's typically not gonna work that way. Now if I take a look at a brain who's doing well, but their ads aren't doing well, I can work with that. But I didn't score. You know, Amazon advertising is just driving. Admit like additional views to your listing. So you're listening. Needs to be doing well already before you start dumping money into that. So first thing, brand unique products we do take into account what they're listing looks like in terms of backing optimisation, ABC imagery, bullet points, things like that, because the better that is, the better my job is gonna be. And then when it comes to like, just the Amazon advertising side of things we could look at, he would reach ad types in management's things like that. And
[0:03:15] George it is interesting you say that we have this mentality that I developed when I Amazon called out the mouth of your operations first, then comes around. We've always worked in the premise ofthe where there's no point driving loads of traffic if you can't fulfil those orders in a timely manner, for argument's sake or your listening doesn't actually convert because that's not going to make the fly, we'll spin. It's just you're throwing traffic a problem essentially right
[0:03:46] Destaney Wishon 100% couldn't have said it better myself,
[0:03:49] George Thank you. So I guess, keeping on the Amazon appetising topic, which is obviously Rover expertise, and we will go into a couple of other different questions. But I did want to tackle out because obviously, is something you're brilliant at it. So where should people focus be right now on Amazon? Appetising as it is moving so fast? Nothing that focus that because key word we liketo centre our questions on Where's where's the focus right now for people on Amazon?
[0:04:16] Destaney Wishon You know, I think you kind of just said the Corbett there, and it's just focus, focus on one thing and then work on stealing, you know, looking at the arsenal of ads you have now, you have sponsored products product targeting and keyword targeting auto and manual. You have sponsor brands, keyword in product targeting and then under sponsor brands, you have video and search custom image Bay that landing pages, the store pages and then you also have sponsored display, which Nahhas product targeting category targeting interest targeting, audience targeting and a few other targeting world under sponsored display. So when I talk with, you know, newer sellers who are looking at all of this, they're kind of like we want to do anything and everything. Well, if you're doing anything and everything on a minimal budget, you're not gonna build to collect data on anything because it's gonna be so breath in. So the biggest recommendation I can make is look, break them down into smaller pieces. Look, a sponsor product Probably start there because that's the most organic looking of the ad types. It's probably the easiest for newer sellers, and it's gonna drive usually 70% of your sales over Responsive brands responsive display, so start responsive products. If you have data, auto campaigns are amazing. They could now be broken out into four categories to make your targeting a little bit better. They're great for Evergreen data collection. Even with, you know, some of our largest, like, nine figure sellers. We run auto campaign, so highly recommend them, um, manual campaigns he were targeting. Probably the second step. If you have data, and then you can kind of start moving your way up the funnel. Probably sponsor display next because it is just uploading and hasten and targeting that. And then you can start looking at some of the branded approaches through sponsor brains. You know, top of funnel, sponsor display things like that, but starts. No,
[0:06:04] George I guess that's but we got people after. I think that applies to any much going on. It's very easy to be like, I need to go do this and this and this and this and because they're trying to do so many different things were actually doing no one thing. Well, they're splitting their time. That energy that resource isn't. I imagine you do. You see that a lot. Then when you first have commute conversations with new guys, you're looking to bring on board. Okay, what do you do? We want to try and do this. This this. But you're like, Well, let's nail this and build up right
[0:06:38] Destaney Wishon 100%. We see a lot of shiny objects in German like video and search being rolled out. But that was something that we got multiple questions about us. Hey, how do I dominate video searching? Driving additional $1,000,000 in sales when in reality video and searches on showing up pretty much in one placement on the page? So added Mentor is really small. So even if we're doing a 100% perfect video at 100% perfect targeting, it's still only gonna drive like maybe 30% of our sales, max. So if you're smart products aren't in a good place. Don't move on to all the other ad types. Focus on what's going on 80 20. Yeah,
[0:07:15] George that's absolutely right. Well, another key point you made earlier. Ron was moving your way up the fun I really have. Like that. We have this kind of thought process off on Amazon. Typically, the crowds there is gonna be much hotter than anyone else outside the Amazon's ecosystem that come there with a problem to solve. So with that in mind, you said, when you're moving up the funnel of what I assume you mean by that is that there are ads that I sat there for people who are piping hot and want the solution. But then you're also talking about raising awareness of your brand. But it's not necessarily for those who are ready to buy it just yet. Is that what you mean by that?
[0:07:51] Destaney Wishon 100% and even looking at it from, you know, competitive keyword perspective. If I sell, you know, a metal straw from the cured metal straws pulling me much more expensive and a little bit more of unawareness play because it's more broad. So consumers typing that in is going to be over saturated with all these products and ads. But if you look at some year long till keywords are a little bit less competitive and extremely aligned with your product, maybe it's you know of metal straw for a certain type of bottle or a metal straw that is, has the rubber tip with it. Once you get you know, more niche on your targeting, you're going to get in touch, purchase and tit face just like you mentioned where you know, 100%. What they're typing is a line with your product?
[0:08:36] George Yeah, I think interesting. One of the great examples either conversation with someone that operates in the resistance band niche I was about a year ago. I spoke some of the brands would plum brands Onda fascinated in her head was like, If you're looking to sell that product, there is so much competition for them. Come home resistance, Jim Resistance fans. And they both said to themselves, Right, What's our niche gonna be? They went with ballet and dancers as they're kind of cute. Where's the target? And they built their brand around that. Even if you think about it from a finding that sub niche, that long tail set of key words that perhaps no one else is thinking about, you're just going I'm gonna dominate. Then I'm gonna dominate that part of the pie, and I'm also gonna build my branding around it as well. Is that something you see people doing quite often, or is that normally that I find there,
[0:09:30] Destaney Wishon Yeah, I don't see people doing it that often, but people should be doing it. There's that There's a lot of categories like that where, you know, it's pretty oversaturated, But if you figure out one key piece that stands out from Target those consumers directly, you're gonna be able to win market share much cheaper. A soccer balls like another great example for betting on soccer ball to me, really expensive. But if you've been on, you know, read soccer ball for toddlers and you're getting soup for a line without your target demographic is, that's when you're really gonna excel and build. You know, when that piece of the market
[0:10:02] George you know a lot about a lot of you may have already answered this next question, but I'll phone there anyway because you might chuck the bell's out there. What mistakes do you see most when people appetising on Amazon?
[0:10:14] Destaney Wishon There's two really big ones. One is, you know, not collecting enough data to actually make a decision in the 2nd 1 which have big dicks off. That is not relying on bid management of any kind. Even if it's you going in by hand and making adjustments, I would say big mantra is thie Number one lever. You can pull to optimise your cue words. I always kind of joke. I could make the most non relevant keywords profitable with correct good management. That should be the thing that you focus on before you dive into, you know, 3000 different keywords to bid on and thinks like that. Make sure you have good, good management place. Um, when we're looking at an accountant, one of war personally, looking at key words, we don't even like making big adjustments until we have at least eight clicks. That's how much do we need before even making an adjustment. So if you upload a list of 100 keywords and you need eight clicks across each one and you're bidding a dollar, that's $800 right there just to collect. So look at the bigger picture and then kind of first principal. How much you need?
[0:11:17] George Yeah, a lot like that. A lot. And I think it's something people come quickly. Overlook is that data element, and it whenever you're talking about Amazon and when working, there is something they drill into. Every decision they are making is based around data. I think if you could learn something from a company that is doing pretty well, Amazon, then make all your decisions around that data and whether it's doing your keyword research and drilling into nothing but the data or it's something completely different. Allowed you to make more informed decisions right now applies to what you're talking about as well.
[0:11:50] Destaney Wishon Yeah,
[0:11:51] George so not necessarily your massive areas of expertise, because you focused largely on Amazon. But how important right now Because we're driving traffic on Amazon, whether nice and hot often do you think it is channel with this and thinking about? I've been traffic from our families and onto the platform?
[0:12:10] Destaney Wishon Yeah, I think it's 100% important. I mean, the direction I see Amazon going in general is more brand awareness. We, you know, we kind of saw was free Pharrell in, like, the last four years where anyone and everyone could throw up a private label products and probably do somewhat decent. And what happened is just oversaturation of all these categories. We have a tonne of competition. Anyone confined a manufacturer, you know, due to the Internet these days. So the direction I see Amazon going the direction I think most brand owner should have in mind is creating a brand with brand loyalty and that people know, Um so to answer that external traffic is majorly important. Putting her product on Wal Mart. Everyone's goal should be to have a brand with loyal consumers who can consistently no market to to sell your other products things like that. So if that's your goal, 100% need to be diversifying your traffic and driving is many people who can be, you know, a loyal consumer to your product.
[0:13:08] George I guess that that thing said question a little bit, is what one thing would you be doing right now to create sustainable success on Amazon,
[0:13:17] Destaney Wishon creating a brand presence? A lot of people, you know, just kind of throw up our product in a private label product and then kind of assumed that since there is so much traffic coming to Amazon just organically, you have this, you know, resource of millions of people, potentially by that just throwing up the products, their focus. But going forward, you know, we're getting much more creative guidelines. Store pages are coming that much more important. Amazon posts are coming that much more important, even from the Amazon advertising pates. Peace were allowed to upload, you know, lifestyle images, things like that. So I think coming up with your brains Storey building that brand storey and figuring out how to drive. Consumers who appreciate that story's gonna be the number one most important thing in the future.
[0:13:59] George You said Storey, that's yeah, I completely agree with you 100%. Which part absent appears to be your turn today as well. So you write that brand presence is evermore important and they are giving us these assets. Like you said, posts, tto, help build, build that kind of brand equity on the market place, I think with more, but and it just really storeys. Do you see something like storeys coming to Amazon as well, where you can kind of a mess yourself a little bit more in the day to day running of the Brando?
[0:14:33] Destaney Wishon I have seen them playing around with it in general. So now you have, like, the Amazon lives and things like that which allow brand owners to truly get on the platform and, you know, show their consumers what they're going to talk about their products, things like that. And they've actually started integrating it very similarly to what video and search looks like. So you're just scrolling for your top keyword, and you see a long list of videos and you could watch them in. The majority of them are like live videos from the brand owner, or consumers have uploaded live video. So I think there's going to be a lot of weight given to consumer happiness with a product and telling that Storey with your consumers feel about your products. You feel about your products.
[0:15:13] George Yeah, or even looking on boxing experiences something as well, kind of like from start to finish. But I quite like that. That being said, like playing on the content thing, which seems to have been a theme so far on this podcast, and everyone I've spoken to has reiterated the importance of content. But obviously you work in the appetising world. So if you could hire just one individual to help a brand, what would their skill set being?
[0:15:39] Destaney Wishon Oh, that's a complex one. When you have 1000 different things in your Amazon, one of the biggest things that I've seen just feel the touch. Every single aspect of the business, for the most part, is like a creative person on your team, a branding person. Um, because then you could influence your shore page. What? That looks like you're in majority. You can influence the advertising, your Facebook marketing, your grand marketing, all of that. You can definitely tell when you know a listing is outsourced to someone who just has really graphic design work. Nothing looks cheaper. And I think with the shift of everything we've seen lately, you know, having you good quality brands gonna make a big difference. So everyone who's doing the little things right are gonna
[0:16:27] George think you're such a good point there in terms of that brand identity and had the conversation with the graphic designer this week in the U. K. And he said, One of the things you really helps people understand that the work they do is identifying what their brand identity actually is. I think if you outsource like you say, you look at listings equally as much as I do. You can spot the ones that have bean pinned off offshore to be done, and obviously you are saving the cost. But do they fully understand your brands? I think a good investment you're absolutely right is someone who understands your brand, and they're working with on a regular basis, and they've helped you with Facebook campaigns. They've helped you with a plus concept. They've helped with some of the copyrighting, and they're kind of in some degree are living and breathing the brand, because if you just offshore it, you're always going to run the risk of losing kind of thie, the beating heart of what your brand is right
[0:17:24] Destaney Wishon 100%. And I find that brain donors are very, very in love and connected with their brand that sometimes it's hard for them. See, you know when they need to pivot and things like that. So getting that external iron, your products always amazing
[0:17:38] George possible eso slightly different questioning. And today, if you had 10 grand to build Armas in business, you've already got a product. What would be the first thing you'd invest in?
[0:17:50] Destaney Wishon Man, this is probably easier. If I was a Brando. I I've always tailored. I've tossed her Valentino building a brand and different things we would look at and finances aside. We want to look at products that would be extremely passionate and that have a lot to do with our lifestyles, which is very like, outdoorsy and things like that in that category and a lot of the really strong categories on any of us. I think influencer marketing is doing really, really well, but it's not being done well within the agency's. Um, I think that there's not a lot of talk around like, Hey, I need to go to this influence or this influencer That's still kind of a murky world. There's no leading agencies that are like connecting people with influencers. But I would probably spend a lot on influencer marketing because I think that ties in one, the advertising aspect to the driving external traffic and then three, the branding and the brand loyalty. That's what influencers are great at influencing people to purchase your product because they're using it in their own lifestyle. So I always think that would be a great asset. But I want to do that with wonderful branding in general, which so it's like what I spent on influencers. If I don't have great branding know, so maybe split between the duke. It is
[0:19:07] George tricky. I completely get it. Sze an interesting point. I haven't heard it before with regards to two things. They're kind of over agencies not really nailing that influence connecting like those. There are market places and they just cruel data from YouTube, Facebook instagram on DH Paul some numbers and drop a few philtres on trying connect you, which is okay, kind of gets with a similar lake work, But I think part of it the job you're looking for, you're tasking someone with is which person or influence for individual is going resonate with your brand values the most, and that could easily get lost right on. Another key point you make there is it is working really, really well on DH. I really like your idea. Like you and Taylor on the boat when I had it, We were kind of like, If we're gonna set up to create a product, we don't want to just go right. Well, we'll just pick something for Ali. Baba will throw up, and we just know we could do a better job with graphics. We may have a bit more funding than other people. We want to go right pick a product, I tell people, is all the time, like picking a product you actually passionate about, because if you're buying so let's say, for argument's sake if you're buying dog toys, but you're actually a more of a cat person. You don't not dogs whatsoever. For argument's sake, I'm a dog person for what? You're buying talk toys and you're gonna build a door brand. You like grey? Yeah, because the numbers on helium turn Jungle Scout, whatever. Say, this is gonna be a winner. Thumbs up when you then perhaps shit hits the fan, and it's been quiet for a few months because competitions come in or you gotta block an Amazon or a bad review or something bad happens because it always will is going to be much more difficult to drag yourself towards the desk each morning and go right. I've got 10,000 of these bloody dog mats over here that I need to get rid off. I don't even like dogs. What I'm not even passionate about this lost a point. I think I tell people this all the time like don't just pick a product based on the data. The data is important. Don't get me wrong, but you've got actually, it's gonna be a passion project for you. In my opinion, we'll move onto a different question as I think of completely, but with that one. But let me go on something right here. What bad recommendations do you hear most in your area of expertise?
[0:21:21] Destaney Wishon Zig in your budgets in the somewhat I'll have to be destroyed across those few words, so always keep it small and make big decisions. You'll have the data to figure out how to optimise your bids in order to make a product. You know, problem. It's all about the native.
[0:21:35] George Yeah, I guess a lot of the time I spoke to people like, I'm going to go find more keywords, find more keywords. And that's good, I guess partly because you're continuously identifying new, long tell things that could work. But in the same token, if you're adding another 50 are you? Then go what? I need to take them away from somewhere else because I haven't got the budget to split across the additional 50 as well, a sort of audio going
[0:22:01] Destaney Wishon 100%. That's exactly right. When we see that pretty often
[0:22:05] George okay, mix mix a lot of sense me there and one one thing. What we got here, which would tie and I said that so on apparent failure of yours that set you up for a latest success. So something where you could have come. That's been a complete balls up. Did you learn some of these things from
[0:22:22] Destaney Wishon failure,
[0:22:23] George or is it kind of always come naturally?
[0:22:27] Destaney Wishon Yeah. I definitely learned quite a bit from failure, maybe Like looking at it from the agency perspective side I have had to do, you know, a lot of growth, like only an agency over the last few years. You know, thankfully, having incredible partner, that's helped me with that. But few areas where I am, you know, personally had a lot of failures opened up my eyes to her aspects. Amazon uprising is I don't know, the same gold. Well, that's not the right word, but really, really sensitive toe like a brand for reach out to me. I just want to help them. I want to do anything possible to help them. And that's when I kind of came to the realisation that some brands, like cannot be helped with the Amazon advertised, and I don't get sucked in because I just couldn't say no, like, I would like to turn people away, and then they've got please, like, just try to help me out. And, you know, their products were like selling headphones on Amazon or this ridiculously competitive category or they would have no competitive advantage. But I like the person. So I would try to help the person, and, you know, that was a major failure. So on my end, I would say how that could be beneficial to others is making sure you're believing your brain is like everything you mentioned earlier. I'm not just trying to watch prior legal product in a really competitive category.
[0:23:43] George Yeah, it is so true. And I'm certain the same in that capacity of like, if someone gives me a soft storey like you do here a little bit with the academy, like for whatever reason, you kind of like OK, well, I'll just like this one. So you do it this once you like? Like I've done it again and before, You know, you don't like 20 or 30 times and sometimes I find a book called in for like, another hour, and I'm like, Well, okay, fine, because love on someone is like talking. So that half hour call turns into an hour like the hour, always on. And you're like, I should really probably charged with something like this at some point, but on that being particularly useful, useless when it comes to it,
[0:24:25] Destaney Wishon 1000% time in general as a business owner is a really interesting thing to learn how to balance and, you know, kind of like the credo. Spence Bullet. What don't you be working on that can drive most results? Because, you know, if you're working that two people like 9 to 5, you go in, you have the set hours, and you just do what needs to be done. But as a business owner, there's so many things you could be focusing on, trying to figure out what's most important is huge.
[0:24:51] George Yeah, again, even his visits only you have that shiny objects, and I mean, it's why I'm literally creating a podcast at this point in time, instead of doing septic health like there's a shiny object that lets great and it unless you can see it's going to be beneficial for your overall business. And that applies to Amazon or any other industry as well that we work on the service side of things that if you're an Amazon Brando, nor your or whatever. If you're going to get distracted by Charlie objects that interest you, which are gonna add incremental value, you can quickly drain four hours, eight hours, 12 hours whatever it happens to be right
[0:25:30] Destaney Wishon in
[0:25:31] George keeping with the keeping of the topic. For that, things would liketo master. If you had an hour a day to master a skill, what would you choose
[0:25:41] Destaney Wishon who know what an hour additional day it would probably diving into a lot of psychology aspect of business marketing things like that. I think that pretty much anything you do near Bazan advertising could be outsourced, apparently, and I think that's probably the true winning of entrepreneurship is upl stop step out of the business and let someone else run it. So where that I would like to dive into, like, psychology side of things that could interact with and you know, how to build the most creative marketing, coughing and things like that. I'm being importantly, I think
[0:26:18] George one of the things to psychology I've always found it interesting and relates that's advertising is things like future pacing Crockett and say, which is like for those unaware where you gonna paint the picture of what it's like to have an experience, that product and to a certain degree, someone psych will believe and fill the emotion of actually having it Just because you've painted the picture right? And that's, I think, so interesting. That was one topic I would also love toe. Just dig a little bit deeper in sweat, and it's going to be beneficial for you as well, right? If you have a stronger understanding, your campaigns can be a little bit more on point, perhaps a little more cutting edge.
[0:26:54] Destaney Wishon Yeah, 100%. And then there's just so many other factors that effects, you know, just your data, their relationships. Honestly, what do you start? I'm sharing with psychology of how people work are improved. The data relationships of your agency partners things like that. I think those were improve, you know, exponentially by having a better study of just how the brain works and you want
[0:27:19] George to touch upon their outsource and ethnic as a skill in general, Would you say that something that many brand owners could be better
[0:27:28] Destaney Wishon 100%? Everyone loves their brains, so it's always, you know, hard to take the step to outsource. And one of the biggest issues I do see with outsourcing is yours. Endedly Paying someone a man for that you're still consistently in the account. If if you'd surely want to outsource, it's not doing you any good to pay someone and still be matching micromanaging. The ads are micromanaging. You know everything else that's going on supply chain things like that. So in order to, you know, yeah, for yet to be paying for the right partners and paying for people who really understand your Storey and letting them do their job, which I really frees up your time to focus somewhere else. Now, if your name's on, Howard has ingenious don't outsource it all sorts of other things. But it's not your strong point. Look for someone else who is. Do you
[0:28:17] George find that quite a lot when you're dealing with some of the clients at the moment and over the last kind of period of 123 plus years that everyone or a large majority people do always kind of, but their nose and a little bit and be off look, this week pulled this This This is that something you see quite often
[0:28:35] Destaney Wishon it was something we saw, you know, initially, when we're in a little bit different of a place for the agency Nowadays we we try to bet people just as hard as they've got us, because the more for us to be successful, we truly want partners in this space. When we're looking at building relationships of brands, you know, we're looking for really long term relationships. We find people who we like not just on a brand perspective, but from a relationship perspective. Because in order for us to driver most our ally, that's what we need. And in order for a brain still drive most of our ally of outsourcing, they need someone they can trust. So if you have an issue with that trust in that relationship aspect, maybe you need to look at hiring someone internally to do it so you can keep a better handle on things. I'm all I had to say it, but, you know, you get what you pay for, So if you're not having a fantastic really should have been really trusting the person you're working with, maybe it's time for you to look for someone else because you're losing money by hanging and being in the out.
[0:29:38] George It's so true, like a lot of the time, particularly with out there are people all over the world to claim all sorts of things about what they can do for your advertising and how cheaply they can do it in terms of our lease or a monthly right. But then, is it going to cost you more in the long run and you go? But they made a mess, or I've just spent so much time over looking at myself. I wasn't hands off, which is, you know, you set up on this journey to go. I want to make advertising hands off. I want to mak
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