Tom and I are brothers. He's become pathetically obsessed with creating great copy and building out email flows that drive CLV.
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In this episode we discuss:
[0:00:00] George Reid: Welcome to It's always Day one. My name is George Reed, a former Amazonian turned Amazon consultant. Each week on the podcast you're gonna hit industry experts. Brand owners on Amazon employees share their answers to the basic yet fundamental questions you should be asking yourself about your Amazon business. Now let's jump in. Hello, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you very much for joining me for another episode off. It's always Day one. Today we got something a little bit different. I've got the brother Tom coming onto the podcast, Tom and I, for a bit of background. Used to run launchpad academy, the listing people together. We since split ways. And Tom is working on a rare But the things Tom, welcome to the show. We're going to give us a brief background that we can get chewed in some questions.
[0:00:45] Tom Reid: Yeah, of course. So, obviously I waas helping Amazon salads launch sale on Amazon with their marketing moved away from Amazon. Now on helping mawr just general e Commerce brand mainly focusing on the email marketing retention on off Amazon presence
[0:01:03] George Reid: Nice. And to get kind of five straight in one common question, I'm asking a lot at the moment is around sustainable success and how we create sustainable success on Amazon. But let's focus off for the time being. How would you look to create sustainable success off of Amazon in 2021?
[0:01:22] Tom Reid: Yes, I think I think one of the biggest mistakes that people make is they focus so hard on that, like being profitable on the front end. They obviously spend money on Facebook ads, instagram out whatever the case may be, driving traffic to their website on. Then they cut those ads. If they're not profitable, the reality is right now. Cost per impressions. Customer acquisition costs increased massively over the last 12 18 months on the money needs to be made on that back end, Which is why, with brands I'm working with with my own Nikon brand, we're really focusing on building out a robust, watertight back end so we could take that customer. We can acquire them way may. Hopefully we'll hopefully The aim is to break even on that front end through the acquisition, but then we can then obviously leverage email, retargeting, direct mail. Whatever the case may be on that back end to actually squeeze the profit out off them on. I just don't think many brands are doing that now. They're not focusing on that. They're focusing so hard on the front end that they're neglecting their back end, where most of the profits actually made
[0:02:25] George Reid: on there. Any circumstances Where, um, on the front end. Obviously, with that cat going up massively on, everyone's always gonna ask the question off the ideal situation. You break even on the front end. But there's some categories. Surely, it's becoming almost impossible to break even on the front end Now
[0:02:42] Tom Reid: 100% I'd say supplements. I mean supplements are working supplement brands and their customer acquisition cost fire. Facebook ads you're looking at like ВЈ15.20 pounds. It's really, really high Onda. A lot of these brands, they just obviously like to be honest, they kind of just cut, cut the spend straight away. It's what is too high for them. They say Facebook instagrams not working. Therefore, they simply just they just cut it. But the actual problem is, is that they just don't know how to retain those customers. They've also got a consumable product. People utilize their vitamin supplements. Whatever the case may be, they need to re buy it for 30 40 days later, and they just don't have any mechanism in place to actually do that now. Obviously, the best mechanism to have in place is email. It doesn't cost anything to send out an email to existing customer, but it's a direct touch point to that customer to learn them back in on. If you've got it set up properly, like automated flows set up properly, they could just work in the background for you. So an email could go out to someone say, 30 days 40 days later. Remind them that they're probably running low on their product now and then give them that offer toe actually come back and repurchase on. If you could do that properly, then that's where you can afford to spend ВЈ20 to acquire a customer. Because, you know, on the back end that lifetime value off that customer is there gonna be 60 70 80. Whatever the case may be,
[0:04:02] George Reid: um, Andi. Yeah, it's interesting you say about self minutes. Just yesterday I read, you know, in the US alone, you're paying $10 a click for protein at the moment. Um, interesting notes. In in Mexico, you're paying $1 so it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that it's ВЈ15 on Amazon to acquire on Facebook to require a customer with with regards to those automation is you've got in place. My only question would be, What data are you collecting to see they're actually working? How does that how does that look?
[0:04:36] Tom Reid: So I use Claudio for email marketing the clients that I use on its so in depth that it just gives you all of that data. So, for example, you can segment people based on one what they purchased two. How many times they purchased free when they purchased last. So, for example, we've got different kind of audience is We've got an audience of people who have purchased one. So, like just one time, customers on the aim of that is to get them to to. We then got people who have purchased twice. The aim of that is to get into three on, let's say, for vitamins, for example, or supplements. Whatever the case may be, when we get into three, we kind of know that they're going to become a customer for life and we wanted, then get them onto a subscription plan so would send them bespoke content to try and get them onto that subscription plan. I think a lot of people make the mistake of trying to go either straight for the subscription straight away. And I must admit I fell into that trap before, you know, thinking, right, let's just try and get someone to subscribe and it just takes longer for people to actually do that. You know? They need to actually trust that brand. They need to use those products multiple times to ensure that they actually work for them on via email. You can do that. You can. You've got that flexibility. You know what their actual lifetime value is of each customer on. Therefore, you can also put people in different buckets based on that
[0:05:53] George Reid: on. You obviously got three buckets identified, one purchase to purchase and then three. Plus, are you thinking about any different types of customers? Like what they're buying? Are you segmenting mawr? You segmenting based on how hungry they are, how repeat their purchasing or
[0:06:13] Tom Reid: yes, So you've also got different funnels when it comes down to email, like you've got your welcome flows, which also when people first get introduced to the brand on. That's when you're obviously taking them through the different kind of stages that they're out really obviously building trust with them, giving them reviews, etcetera, etcetera. In the name of that is to just get them to make one purchase. Once they've made that one purchase, they then obviously then go into like a post purchase float, which is against fully automated on. The good thing about utilizing like a platform like Claudio is that you can create flows and segment that customer based on what they've actually purchased. So let's say, for example, someone purchases something from my protein and they buy. I don't know, some weight gain powder. You can send them content surrounding that weight gain powder, how to utilize it properly on. Then within those emails you can then cross sale, say, creating to them on DSO. That that's the benefit of utilizing email in that kind of format is that you're not just sending out one email toe. Absolutely everybody, because the reality is if you've got multiple products, everyone doesn't want the same kind of content that there are different customer. They've got a different kind of problem. So therefore now with the to see kind of e com kind of stuff, you need to actually send bespoke content to people. And it doesn't mean that you're just writing bespoke content and sending them individually mail. It means just putting them into these kind of micro buckets on, then sending them content that they're actually interested in a swell.
[0:07:42] George Reid: And there must be the temptation to make him evermore complicated and create more and more and more of these micro buckets and more and more and mawr off these automation flows for someone just starting this process. And I imagine there are plenty. A Z mail kind of becomes evermore important, despite it being kind of the first form of communication. What advice would you give us to do? You start small, Do you go Just create two buckets. They You've got two types of products where people typically buy. First, create buckets for them on, then figure out layer on top of it. Or do you go right down all the different types on? Then build out 10 micro buckets?
[0:08:29] Tom Reid: Yeah, it's a really good point. So 100%. When you're first starting out, just go with simplicity. I'm a big fan of keeping things simple, so the first thing you want to do is you want to create a welcome flow. Hands down. It is the most profitable flow for U. S. So let's say, for example, someone lands on your website. A pop up appears. It says 10%. Often in return for your email, they input their email on. Then they simply just go through your welcome flow. Now on that welcome flow. What I'm doing with most of our clients I worked with were heavily pushing that kind of hero product from that brand, the product that generates 80% off their revenue simply because it is going to generate the most conversions. And nine times out of 10. It's the most profitable product for them as well, so most of the content surrounds that product. And then we're also you'll see, just dripping in additional content as well about their other products. The whole name of that is just getting by once on, then the other two flows that you want one abandoned cart. 70% of people who go into your website will abandon their car on. You don't need them over complicated with your abandoned cart. The first thing that you could do is just send out, like a very simple kind of like text based email to someone because most people just forget that they've abandoned car on, then send them a couple of additional emails thereafter, kind of advising them why they should come back to you, blah, blah. And then you made then dripping liken incentives such as free shipping or heavy a discount code on. Then you actually got your post purchase flow. So that's the third floor that you want to set up on. Obviously, I mentioned before about how we split off into multiple different kind of branches, as you say. But, you know, at the end of the day, if you've just got a very kind of straight line flow that it just, you know, introduce, um Thanks. Thanks. Um, if they've got any problems, contact us, etcetera, etcetera, then that's gonna be suitable. One thing that you also want to mention is well on that post purchase flow is that you don't wanna be trying to sell to people if they didn't enjoy the first purchase. So what? I invest heavily is sending out kind of text based emails to people or text based messages to people asking if they're actually happy with the product, because I don't want to. Then send them additional. Trying to sell them additional stuff if they're not happy with the first one is just doesn't create a very good, useful experience for people.
[0:10:40] George Reid: Andi, how soon do you go into that? Is that kind of? Obviously, you said you send your normal flow your products on the way on. I assume this is part of the flow because that's something you want to keep them informed about and what people have come to expect from anything online. Really, that seems like the operational base, if you will following that is it? Then, in case off, how is your product? How is the experience on? I'm guessing it depends on the product category in the product itself. How many days after they've received it? You then send a
[0:11:13] Tom Reid: 100%. So what we normally do is we send a message out a couple of days after their purchase just to give them a point of contact. If they've got any problems, and this is just a simple text based email. There's nothing else in. There's no call to action or anything like that. It's just a text based email from the founder of the company saying Thank you for your purchase. If you've got any problems, please send. Please reply to this email and we'll get back to you ASAP. It's just a really nice way to actually, um, you know, communicate with that customer showing that you know we're here. If you've got any problems on, then Obviously again, it depends on the type of product that you've got off, how quickly you actually move after that. Some products, for example, like, let's say, if you're selling collagen, that was He takes a few weeks to actually work. You know, it doesn't work overnight. It's not like an instant kind of gratification product. So with that, the post purchase cycle for that is slightly longer, obviously, because you need to give them, actually timeto actually utilize that product.
[0:12:10] George Reid: Andi, with something like college and then are you looking? Thio play a bit of education that as well it's the same with organic deodorant, where it takes three days, apparently to get rid of your old deodorant before the organic then kicks in. So one of the issues is people do it for the first three days and they are still stink. So they're having that educational problem. Is it the same with collagen and similar products? Where you go, you may be experiencing the deodorant not working on that could be opening line, for instance, and then you're looking to educate them. Here's why. So that your encouragement to kind of see the course through explaining why that could be the case, the same ecology, and it could take this number of days. Stick to it because, you know, if they go through that period, their experience heightens by whatever amount
[0:13:01] Tom Reid: 100%. So this is where we get a little bit more advanced where we're sending people down a branch off a post purchase flow based on what they purchased. But we've got a flow set up for one client who sells college and on it does exactly that. The first email kind of educates them and tells them exactly how often they should take the product when they should see results on this client. Also sounds like sleeping tablets as well on. Do you know again, we're gonna be telling them this sleeping tablet isn't just gonna knock you out. You know, you need to obviously on, you know, being a dark room. And it's be called blah, blah, blah. So they're additional things as well on that. And that's that's what we've kind of found out from getting feedback from, Like their Amazon listings. People have commented saying this didn't work blah, blah, blah. And the reality is it probably won't work because they had additional kind of things going on. That meant it didn't work. It's a supplement at the end of the day, and people tend to forget this. So we're using that in the post purchase to educate them on this so that when they do come back to us on, they say it doesn't work. We can kind of say, Well, you know, Did you did you? Is this one of the reasons why blah, blah and the reality is when that happens, then they're going to get a much better experience with the product because they actually know how to use it. And a lot of people don't do that
[0:14:14] George Reid: I guess you continuously delivering more value, your improving, that relationship you have with, um when you when Ugo in. Initially, though, what you found over the last few clients that you've been going into, How many of them are just completely unaware of this? How many of them are even thinking about AH, post purchase experience and how you can enhance our Are they using email at the moment, or is it just something where they're using it as a update process? And that's all on the occasional sale?
[0:14:43] Tom Reid: Yeah, so I think I'd say 90% of brands just don't use email properly. I'll say they've pretty good. It set up on mail chimp, which, in my opinion, just if you're using mail chimp, you're just not using email properly because just not sophisticated enough. It's okay for a newsletter or something like that. But if you want to get, if you want to get in depth and start sending stuff to actually people who want your emails and segment of people, it doesn't work. But most people use email to send our sales stuff. It's very common that people have an email list, and the only time to contact them is when they've got, say along or launch a new product or its black Friday on. The reality is they don't get the best results. Why would you? You know, if you just have if you if you ignored someone for a full 11 months and then on that 12 month, just before Christmas, you message them saying, Oh, by our product, they're obviously not going to do it. You know, you need to build this relationship, people. You need to become memorable into educate your customers on at the end of the day. That's what a brand does if you want. If you want to really kind of succeed in the calm space right now, you need to build a brand, not a business. Andi doing that, That's what that's what it does. But most people you know, most people don't have these flows up. They might have, like 11 welcome email set up. They might have one abandoned car, or they may just be using the Shopify abandoned cars, which are pretty basic. It basic on 90% of people. 95% of people don't have any post purchase in it all really? Wow.
[0:16:06] George Reid: It's kind of kind of mad, really on then Those those that have something? Is it just poorly executed? Like you said there, the Shopify abandoned cart? They just use the basic thing because it's you know what? There's a button I can press and there's a automated email created. I think one of the one of the issues I envisage I've not seen it is you get given a template, but the template doesn't apply to your brand. Hasn't got the right tone, the right voice. So the reason why they may be initially interacted with you was because they liked your tone and your Facebook at or they liked your instagram feed, and they bought into your message a little bit on a kind of connected a little bit with you as a brand. If you then go and start using these templates, which a certainly often sold across the Web, you know, just plug and play your own name in, and then use this and you say I was gonna go up. Do you think that's just bollocks? Because you need to spend a bit more time crafting these emails with your own voice in mind.
[0:17:08] Tom Reid: So I think a lot of people fall into the trap that they think that their emails need to be really, really kind of like lots of graphics, lots of images, something that just really kind of blows the reader out. The reality is, they simply don't the top emails that I follow from the top brands, um, or birds. Oliver Cabell. They're really simple emails. They have a incredible subject line that obviously cells that click so it or sells the open. Even then, when you get inside the email nine times out of 10, they've got one image that just grabs your attention for all birds. It's obviously their shoes or their T shirt, whatever. They're selling Oliver Cabell there also on apparel company as well. So it be something along those lines. Then they've got a good headline, which immediately just pulls you in on. Then that headline and pulls you into the copy on the copies. Just really short, sharp. Just get straight to the point, and then it just got a call to action button on nine times out of 10. That's how their emails structured on people. Forget that on an email you're not trying to sell your product on an email you're trying to sell the click to go to your product. Page your product page on your website cells your product, not your email. So there's no point in just spending half a day designing an email that got a lot of bells and whistles. You send out the service providers where you know Google or Gmail, even Hotmail, Whoever the case may be. See all of this kind of all these images in there, all these kind of gifts and everything and just chuck it straight into junk so it doesn't even get opened. You put no emphasis on the subject line, so even if it does get delivered, it doesn't get opened on. It's so complicated when someone actually opens it, they never actually get to that call to action. They don't know what to do or in worst case scenario. You know, you they know what to do. But you got so many call to actions in there that they don't know what you want to click on. So email designs really important. But with design, I think copy is part of that. You know that falls. It's the structure of the tax, how it's written in the tone of voice on. At the end of the day, if you don't really know what you're doing, then just go For simplicity, have one good quality image, a little bit of text, a really clear call to action, and you can't really go wrong with that
[0:19:18] George Reid: on. Would you be placing a lot of emphasis is well on that copy itself. If you're not gifted from a literacy point of view, if you aren't very good with words, if you can't structure sentences very nicely, I think of anything with you to put on the headline. What advice do you have on that?
[0:19:40] Tom Reid: So the headline needs toe spark. Curiosity s O. What I normally do is if I'm trying to think of something. I just put something really random in there, and it's normal, like a question on. Just so it kind of just like, kind of knock someone off their kind of normal kind of how they're browsing, how they're viewing that kind of email. They think, What's
[0:20:00] George Reid: this
[0:20:00] Tom Reid: on? That's all you need to do that with that subject line. It doesn't even need to be really relevant, really. It just needs to get them to open that email on. Then when you actually get because that's half the battle at the end of the day on, then when you actually get them inside your email, then the copy doesn't need to be fancy. It could just be really just short sentences, choppy sentences on if anyone's actually struggling of how to write copy. I strongly advise reading like the Jack Reacher books. I've just started reading them now. I'm not saying that fiction, but you read that first opening chapter of, Like a Jack Reacher book. It really short, sharp sentences on. That's how you need to structure your copy when you're writing anything, whether you're writing emails, Facebook ads, um, copy on your website. Whatever the case may be, it just needs to really be short and punchy and just make sure that people just stay engaged with it.
[0:20:48] George Reid: But like I
[0:20:49] Tom Reid: said, it doesn't need to be an essay. You don't really want long form, massive, long form copy in an email. The whole purpose off that email that I just mentioned before is to get people to click on that link on just do what you need to do, really, To get people. It could just be an image on the button that may just work. If you sell something really visual, it could simply just be a picture in a button.
[0:21:07] George Reid: I think you kind of comes back toe, a point I've been making recently about that main image and Amazon. If your main images is shotting, you're not gonna get it clicks. You could have the best day plus in the world that you could put all your attention on a plus or storefronts or whatever you need to click in the first place. And that's a really good point about that subject line. Do you? Do you recommend split testing or anything like that? Do you recommend kind of trying different things throughout a period of time? Like each week you try different style with your subject line or anything
[0:21:39] Tom Reid: or yeah, 100%. So in Claudia, you can split test or your emerging A B test everything, and then it automatically finds a winner for you after it sent a certain amount of females. Eso that's really good, you can split is definitely split. Tests are different things you know, like you could test the subject line, You could split test, maybe change the image in the email to see which one obviously got high click through rate. But all I say is obviously have just one variable change on each one. You know, don't change multiple things at once. Just make sure you got one thing changing.
[0:22:13] George Reid: I guess people can probably spit test for for a very long period of time and tried so many different things. Excuse May. But that surely is a point where you I mean, in my mind, I'm thinking maybe you go, you run it to them. It's lit. Test two different styles. So, like, here is one style where you always ask you a question or another style on you run that for a period of time. On that way, you get a little bit more data to go. Actually, emails of questions, you know, test be. We do every week. We send it out with the question is a subject always performs better than test a while we send it out with a statement. Um, something like that could also thinking aloud Just be a way to kind of test and obviously get regular insights because you could just have a great question
[0:23:03] Tom Reid: 100 100%. You know, the end of day, the more emails you actually send, you kind of gauge what your audience start opening. So, for example, if you're selling vitamins D emails that we send out for vitamin companies, that the how to how to improve your immune system for seven steps to improve your immune system they were really Well, um, whereas other kind of brands were selling gin, for example, we can get a little bit more quirky simply because that's the nature of their brands. So they're kind of shorter, shorter subject lines, I'd say. Mostly subject lines less than 70 characters. You don't be any longer than that. Also, testing emojis Chuck Emojis in there. You know, they worked really well. If you don't overdo it on, they actually stand out from the in box as well. So yeah, 100%. It's really important to keep testing things
[0:23:49] George Reid: nice. Well, thank you so much for for coming on. No other. No other final questions from
[0:23:53] Tom Reid: May. What I'll
[0:23:55] George Reid: do for those listening is I'll include a link Thio Tom site, Rockwall consulting dot co dot UK In in the show notes, you could go
[0:24:04] Tom Reid: explore working
[0:24:06] George Reid: on email a little bit more. Any final comments on your side?
[0:24:09] Tom Reid: No, I'm not. Well, I'll just say if you're not doing email right now, it's hands down. The most important channel for you is one of those channels where you own the data. You know you own those customers. If you sell on Amazon, you don't own any of your customers and Amazon Amazon Dio If you're focusing all of your attention on driving all of your traffic from Facebook and Instagram as we know you know, both you and I, you know Facebook disable your account overnight and you're absolutely fuck, to be honest on as we've noticed in the last month, you know, new updates with these Apple of releases IOS, IOS update, We're gonna have an impact detrimental impact. Email is not going anywhere. It's being around for so long and it's not disappearing. People open it all it all the time. I'm SMS is well, you know, text messages. That's something that we're tapping into is, well, really, really important as well s. Oh, yeah, I just said you're not running emails right now. You really need to be. You need to make sure that your back ends watertight before you drive traffic to your website,
[0:25:06] George Reid: I think. Yeah, kind of adding onto that with if you talk back to Amazon with things like advertising getting increasingly more competitive, coming back to that very first point at the start of the episode about making money on the back end is becoming a so much more important. And then also the visibility off. We are actually making money on the back end x percent of times half about the influence of the other decisions in the business.
[0:25:32] Tom Reid: No. 100%. Yeah, definitely.
[0:25:34] George Reid: Awesome. Well, thanks so much for coming on. And I'll speak to you too.
[0:25:38] Tom Reid: Yeah, sure.
[0:25:39] George Reid: Like
[0:25:40] Tom Reid: but
[0:25:41] George Reid: nice. I think it was good. Hey, guys, just a quick one. If you are enjoying the podcast on either have some actionable next steps or new ideas I'd really appreciate if you could one subscribe to the show and leave us. Review thes are really, really important to us. As you probably know, being in the Amazon world and two, if you're looking for additional support with your brand head over to the website. It's always day one dot co dot UK where we've got links to other resource is as often our guys speak soon.
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