This completely changed how I think about email collection. One of the best conversations I've had on customer journeys in a very long time and sets the tone for what we can expect in 2021 onwards.
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In this episode we discuss:
[0:00:00] George Reid: Welcome to us Always Day One. My name is George Reid, a former Amazonian turned amazon consultant. Each week on the podcast you're going to hear industry experts, brand owners and amazon employees share their answers to the basic yet fundamental questions you should be asking yourself bang your amazon business now, let's jump in. Hello ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of It's always Day one. Today I've got john coming speech with a little bit about customers about email collection about data, john john give us a quick background on yourself and I can then start firing you some questions.
[0:00:37] Jon Ivanco: Uh Yeah sure. Startups from pretty much day one left law school after I finished that and just jumped right in, started in sales, went back to marketing and myself doing a lot of consulting for businesses and working on process and automation. Uh Last company was life ex uh ran their marketing and customer experience for a while and they ended up selling and took about a year off to figure out what I want to do next, talking to a bunch of companies and recently launched Form Toro my new venture into the Aecom and data collection space.
[0:01:06] George Reid: And I really enjoyed because I understand Bill upon you this week. It's probably the quickest podcast turnaround from saying hello to speaking because it was yesterday, a message was straightened today. Um What I really liked about the the post you're making was first and foremost you can collect an email address which everyone's preaching now self included, but you've gone one step further and start talking about collecting more data. So first question's gonna kick us off. How important is data collection right now?
[0:01:41] Jon Ivanco: It's worth everything I think for the longest time we viewed and email us as being an asset but an asset that just made sense to have today. It's even more than that. Like an email in it of itself isn't worth anything anymore. Um And I know we're collecting a lot of phone numbers to you for S. M. S. And I think that one's going to die out pretty quick to be completely honest with you. It's too personal. Um It's every time I mean if you think about it this way, especially in e commerce or SAS or whatever when someone signs up for something, the number one question you have is why they sign up and we always make the assumption that it's for a dealer an offer or that they're interested in that deal or offer when sometimes that's not really the case at all. Uh and we just don't know. And then my three questions I usually ask most cmos and Cios or do you know why people signed up? Do you know why people that signed up converted? Do you know why people that signed up didn't convert? And if you can't answer those questions and there really is no one that can answer those with the data back to answer for the most part. Um you find yourself in this question of saying, okay, how much did I spend on ads last month? And then you get into this like odd little area of being like okay, so I spent that and it cost me X amount to get this email address and but my open rates only why And I'm gonna lose 25 on my list every year anyway. So if I have a list of 100,000 people right and 25 are going to turn out, it cost me $10 per email. I just lost 250 k without knowing why anyone signed up or came there in the first place. That is like a terrible sent cost. And it's unavoidable. That is, that is to, you know, mid level director salaries of loss every single year for not asking why people signed up. And the first thing they do when you get like an email and you unsubscribe is they ask.
[0:03:41] George Reid: Yeah, it's such a good point. It's the first thing. But what have you done that instead of asking when they're selling up? Why are you signing up?
[0:03:48] Jon Ivanco: Yeah, it's a it's a big flip flop and I think it's it's hard for people to fully understand. And I know in my conversations over the last couple of years it's been really hard for people to understand what questions they'd like to ask and why they'd like to ask them. It's a kind of what what what what am I going to do with the data is the main thing that kept coming up and uh I think that data influences everything and it's a matter of how clean is it and how can you use it to infer what to do with it. And one of the things that most people think about what data is, it's very hard to tie data directly to R. O. I. And everyone is always looking for return on investment. They might get more insights into something but they feel like they have to do something with those insights. And we kept running up against that conversation where people like well what am I going to do with the state of what can I what can I find out from it? Um and it's it's a big transition and I think for us data and e commerce made sense because it would be to be you get clear you have clear bit and you have a bunch of other things you have addresses to get information about people and you can infer certain things would be to see you don't have anything, you're starting from scratch every single time. So if you're a store store and you can't answer simple questions about who your customers are and you know how we do it, we all go into big boardroom and we write on our white boards and we decide to our ideal persona is and then we start and then we start testing little ads and we say oh this person visited yea or this person converted. They must totally be in our person and we're trusting that that persona is right and what people haven't realized is 99 of sales comes down to timing. It doesn't come down to the offer, the offer is there but it's all that timing. Mhm.
[0:05:37] George Reid: Oh with that being said, I mean you've preached there and that's why I really wanted to get you on about. We should be asking more questions on the sign up, we need to understand each of those users and we've talked before with Giuliana about kind of budgeting people as well and placing people into different buckets than understanding I guess the knock on effect who are the most profitable buckets, short term and long term? Um more of that kind of buying behavior. So then who should be going after which I guess is the object of which would be nurturing more should be treating them differently. That's not an effect. But in order to get those buckets, are we asking them kind of, here's a 15 minute survey or is it going, here's a 22nd thing to complete on type form and you can get some quick answers from someone just so you can start collecting a bit more than here's my name, Here's my email. I want to convert you as quickly as possible,
[0:06:37] Jon Ivanco: you just hit it, everyone's back conversion and it's single time conversion. I mean I want to bring your attention to a couple of things are really interesting if you go to the 30 websites right now, e commerce and they're all going to have pop ups on them for the most part unless you're using brave because then they're not going to show up because they're blocked from a lot of companies. But like, but when you get them it's all gonna say whatever percent off your first order essentially. You've just killed the customer journey by saying off your first order because you're telling everyone that you only care that they purchased one time from you. Yeah. Uh And when I am experiencing a new brand for the first time, I do want the discount because I want to try out the store or the brand, but if it's a new brand that I haven't tried out before, I'm only going to buy one of something and I don't want the epistles, I don't want that. My my average cart value doesn't matter because I'm just trying it out. Like I really just want to get to know your brand. It's the second purchase that people are most interested in. And instead of providing a de risking that second purchase, we really put it on the user to wait until there's a sale or another offer or someone's chasing them in order to entice them to come back. And that makes absolutely zero sense to me from a customer journey perspective. Uh we've seen examples where like we'll find a new brand, even our household and we'll buy like one to try it out and we'll want to go back and you know what ends up happening. We type in a different email address and then we get the same code and then we use that. And I've watched people do this like four and five and six different times and there's no way to track it because you could have two different people that live at the same address. Right? So you
[0:08:23] George Reid: find yourself in these
[0:08:23] Jon Ivanco: patterns and by the way this is like a pattern that exists across all, all of our lovely C. D. P. S. They cannot figure out the difference if someone uses a generic coupon code using two different email addresses or signs up via one checks out via Apple Pay. Same problem. You can't track the full transaction because we're moving towards a situation where there's just always multiple pieces of information hanging out there. But it's just so it's a weird scenario that we find ourselves in.
[0:08:53] George Reid: So that being said, what's the solution here for brands? Because everyone does it and you're right, the pop ups are all over. What are you saying they should do as an alternative?
[0:09:04] Jon Ivanco: I'm saying that every pop up that you have should be a type form like you mentioned, they did it, they did it right. And I've used type form for years in order to automate a lot of things in clean data on the customer support side of things. It served me immensely well. Uh they're not geared towards e commerce and I don't think that e commerce has had the same kind of technological innovation that other categories has had Shopify is very let's build an app store and have a bunch of apps get created and then let's build stuff on top of our core is just going to be our core and it's still going to be a shitty experience. Hence shotgun comes into play and everyone else right. I think that we need to look beyond quantitative as a measurement and integrate qualitative alongside quantitative. And I know Giuliana likes to talk about this and they're all post purchase because we talk on a regular basis. But I think that the real advantage lies in pre purchase and understanding why 98 of the people aren't converting and where they're at in that customer journey. I always used to joke because I tried to use type form years ago at Life X where we're going to have, oh find my lights thing where you can sign up and get a discount for telling me to leave the house in an apartment. Uh You know what bedroom were you thinking about putting colorful lights in? Or what room are you thinking about putting colorful lights? Because then I could change all the subject lines and all the content to matt to mirror what they were looking for. Mhm. It had too much friction though. Up until recently we haven't had the ability to like live day to collect so that you could ask for an email and then just continue through the process and if someone drops off then you still get the data. It always used to be a normal form was that you have to put your email, then you have to fill out the answers, then you have to submit at the end. And this is why when you see quizzes, they always ask a bunch of questions, then hit you up with the email at the end so that they can tie the results to that email. This has been a technological limitation that's existed, which is why you haven't seen a lot of kind of the stuff that we're working on and how we're employing the idea of asked multiple questions. You can ask multiple questions and the data is being live recorded. Worst cases, you get an email. Best cases, you get all the data. Well, it turns out if you're not asking for personal information from people, people really want to tell you where they are in their customer journey because they don't want to get a bunch of spam because they don't want to have to unsubscribe and have you asked why are you unsubscribing? People are genuinely invested. And if you think about it, quizzes are great, People are clicking on stuff and they're going through stuff and they're trying to figure stuff out. But that's during a consideration, part of the buying that doesn't necessarily relate to send me a bunch of shit, but when you're signing up for a discount and you're genuinely opting in the very action of like typing in your email is something that actually takes effort. Like the only other time you're going to type that in is during checkout. So if you think about it from a pure perspective of a user having to do something, signing up is actually this huge intent part where they're already staked into taking an action. And if you can follow up with easy questions that are multiple choice to like figure out what you want to figure out about people you're going to be set and the questions aren't hard, it's related to your category. If you need to narrow down in that category, it's how many do you own or how often do you do that activity? So you know the lifetime value of that potential person And you want to always follow up with what matters most in the product so that you can figure out what values matter to that person related to your brand. And then you end with, when are you looking to purchase? And you might have seen the post today where we just pulled numbers uh, 50 of people like that they want to purchase today. And Ironically not all of them did obviously, but 34 of the conversions of the conversions that use that did come from that group that was ready to purchase today, which tells you two things. One either people randomly from the cold traffic came out and said this product is awesome. I want to have it or they've already been thinking about it and they'll be looking at the category and we can feed them stuff because if you figure out that people are interested in buying like today and they don't, you know who your retargeting immediately and they just told you what they care about in the product.
[0:13:32] George Reid: So I guess some of it is for what you've said that the backtrack a little bit, the first hurdle is the biggest hurdle, which is, I'm gonna slam in my email address. Obviously a good form is going to work with things like chrome, so also fills it and you press one button or work with work with iphones. So you've already got the suggested email there that makes life easier, but it's still the biggest hurdle, so to speak. Following that you've then got little speed bumps, which are you gonna buy today or tomorrow or in three weeks? Then you've got things like do you buy do you buy toilet paper once a month? You buy it wants to be three months and simple to either press on a touch pad or keyboard entry. So G. H. J. Based on the answer 123 whatever and just little bits of information they've already committed And spending an extra 45 seconds. That's a
[0:14:28] Jon Ivanco: it's like less than it's less than two seconds per answer is what we're observing. I mean it is so quick that people because you're asking questions related to a journey they're currently thinking about doing. People's minds are already there psychologically. So they're already considering your product by the time that they actually go to sign up for your service whatever it is. So when you're hitting them with questions that relate to that customer journey, these are things that are all top of mind for them. So it's not you don't get the delays of, let me think about this isn't an open ended question. Okay.
[0:15:01] George Reid: Yeah. It's like me saying now, how often do you buy gym chalk? And you'd be like, I thought about Ben jim talk for a while I guess if I was doing a lot of olympic lifting and then you're like you're not thinking that if you were in the mindset of I need to get my workout gear in order. I've run out of gym talk right now. I'm looking at some different centered bonds which I make mine cells. Okay well yeah I'm looking to buy it once a quarter. Usually that's what I've been through it done. It's already it's already there. Um Which makes sense of coming back to another point which I really like you've made there live recording of data, I'm sure it's a platform you're built out can do that, but it's an interesting point to go Part of a one. Give me your email, but then I've got with some of my type forms for instance in the website for the free amazon audit.
[0:15:51] Jon Ivanco: Yeah,
[0:15:52] George Reid: you've got to get to the end to then submit it, you're gonna get dropped off and then type former like here's where people dropped off and you're looking at your question that I fucked and I asked the wrong question, was that too hard? I should change the question, but what you're saying is live recording is going, we only got three pieces of information but it is still inverted commas submitted the second to give us it right,
[0:16:15] Jon Ivanco: yep. So every step the data is recorded and we like you've seen like attentive does this with their two step to get like the email and the phone number, two pieces of like really personal information. They usually hit, they have continued though as their default as soon as you have continue and then you drop off and then you get an email, it turns into like a weird experience because I've noticed this firsthand, I'm thinking that I'm doing something and that nothing submitted till the end. So we tell everyone hit, submit and subscribe as like your C to on your first one. So people know that they're taking an action. Then once they feel like they've committed to subscribing to something, the rest of the questions just tend to flow. And as long as you let those questions flow around the experience, people genuinely want to more personalized experience and this is true of everything. I can't tell you how many websites I've signed up to that. I wished that they would just asked me a couple of questions. Like really just a couple questions. I would love if brands like chubby's just sent me emails with stuff in my size. Like I would love if I never had to go to a website ever again and have to go find my size or click on an ad where my size wasn't available via an ad that would be like the highlight of my life. Patagonia is like a huge person on this. They'll send out like their sales and like half annual sweet click on the thing and then they won't have my size and honestly, I see everything in my size right away in the color schemes that I like. Like if Patagonia had like a floral point right now, I'd ask if they ask what my color scheme was or why I didn't want something. There's so many, like if you think about like even abandoned carts when you're like on the edge and you don't want to purchase it because you're not sure about the color scheme. No one asks these general questions, but when you're signing up and I'm really into it and I want my discount and hopefully it's gonna be a multi use discount because then I feel like I get to use it multiple times and I know it's waiting for me in my in box and that gets rid of the bias of me waiting for a sale for that. I'm definitely willing to give information. I'm absolutely willing to make this experience awesome because you're telling me as a brand, we want you to buy with us multiple times from that first interaction and I'm telling you as a customer sweet, I'll give you information because you're giving me something that says this is going to be long term,
[0:18:34] George Reid: a couple of things. One a small bit of criticism. You said it was the highlight of your life, which I think is a little bit sad for for you to say that to go and you're sending you a personalized email will be the highlight of your life. I've got to ask some questions there, we'll move on from that. Um The multi use discount, removing the bias I think is exceptional and we can go into that in a minute. But also the the negative experience that most people have and I have a lot being more of a larger male when we've got a brilliant 50% off sale and you're like sick. Patagonia has got some nice items and working some now you click on you like you've got sweet F. A. Of my size in here. This was a complete waste of my time And some of them were they don't have like the filters so you have to go onto the item to then discover that yours isn't available and then you just waste 40 minutes and then you get to that desperate point where you like I will find something in my size even though I don't like it And I probably spent 15 minutes on the site now and then eventually you've been it anyway. That's such a bad experience. Is a good flag flag to raise but the multi use one, let's come back to that. So what you're implying is 10 discount off your first purchase. We've talked about how that gets the user and the mindset, you only care about purchase number one. If you say 10 discount on all of your purchases there already. Then future pacing themselves to a certain capacity of I'm going to be buying from these people again. I know they think I'm gonna like it that much. I'll be buying again and I'm always gonna have that in Mallorca.
[0:20:14] Jon Ivanco: Is that what
[0:20:15] George Reid: you're trying to encourage?
[0:20:17] Jon Ivanco: Yeah. So there's been this big push to lifetime value and this is a push that's been going on for a long time. But it turns out that we've been so wrapped up in conversion conversion conversion that we forgot that building lifetime value requires building relationship from before the first touch. Um and there's something very off putting by a one time discount where you're basically saying as the company you're done, we only expect you to purchase once. Please work with us just one time, take advantage of it and then you know, we'll hound you and bother you and we'll give you a bundle sales and chase you down and maybe give you an extra discount in your abandoned cart because that's what everyone says you're supposed to be doing. And it makes zero sense whatsoever. Number one, you can't stack discounts and Shopify unless you install different apps, so that's gone from like out of the box. People don't recommend it. I think the idea of when I sign up for something, especially if you want to build an experience for me, like meet me halfway, if you want more data, that's going to benefit what our journey is. Meet me halfway. Give me something that's going to benefit my journey. Um in our testing of this, this is probably the, like the coolest thing we've seen people by one of an item that you buy multiple of and they would come back and we were expecting that we'd see people come back, you know here and there, whatever and it might take them a while to try it out, wash the clothing a couple of times, see how it worn. But we're seeing people that were getting deliveries and then within like a day later just ordering like bulk order the next day because they had the ability to go through the journey if I just want to try this and if it's really good, I'm going to come back and I have a coupon waiting for me in my in box. No friction
[0:22:04] George Reid: sweet.
[0:22:05] Jon Ivanco: I don't have to worry about anything. I have to look for anything. Now. One of the cool things about this though that I think a lot of people forget is we live in a very honey world and very discount searching world when you remove generic coupons because all these are done individually and uniquely to that individual sign up. You don't have to offer sales on your website anymore. You don't have to have generic coupon codes anymore. At least none that are like below that threshold. It's just there's just no need and it requires it equals better tracking too because if you have someone um that uses their unique coupon code multiple times, it's being tracked by coupon code. So we know exactly if you're using, if you signed up to one email used another email etcetera, we can actually make those two together. So we can track the whole buying experience and do something. A lot of other people can't which is where people get stuck with having multiple email addresses existing in a system and not knowing where things were attached to. So it sets up a situation that removes bias for how often someone's going to come back and shop, which tells you the frequency better than anything else can. Uh, it's not influenced by a different offer or someone waiting for an offer having a chase down an offer because it just exists in their inbox. The beautiful thing is we integrate with Claudio and we just save it as a custom property so we know exactly how to put it in every single email and flow as a block that you can hide. So if someone doesn't have it or it's not available past certain amount of times for use, then we can just essentially hide it from the emails. But for those people it's applicable to it just ends up being waiting for them in every single email they get. Which is really cool.
[0:23:53] George Reid: So you're you're sending out on an ongoing basis anyway, you're collecting information pre purchase before the first touch point to create a better email experience. So maybe sometimes just sending out once a week. Others maybe it's once a month based on the information they've given you. Let's say it's as simple or as complex as that depends how you like to buildings out. But within those emails, your continuously referencing, hey we've just done this for World Earth Day, we're doing er er er er er to and you're sending out a general email about that just to tell people you're a bloody good company, right? And then at the end you've always got don't forget here is your code that you can use whatever you want,
[0:24:36] Jon Ivanco: yep. Talk about a nice feeling, right?
[0:24:40] George Reid: Like just like
[0:24:41] Jon Ivanco: a gentle reminder that you have it like and you don't have to do anything special for it and it's something that mm like you're building on that relationship of leaving that exposed for however long it's available. Uh And the part that we have with the questions that we ask is if for instance, you're sending out a flow a welcome flow of emails, right? And your spotlighting reviews for instance, like usually welcome number three or в‚¬4 spotlighting reviews for social proof. Now, if someone tells you that they care about something that matters most of them in a product, you're going to go find reviews that highlight what matters most to those people and matches up with that user. So if you think about right now, we choose generic reviews where people say, oh, this is so awesome. But if someone said, Oh, I really care about materials and the review that you have all of a sudden says quality was top notch. I love these materials because of blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You have now figured out a way to tighten that customer journey and ratchet it into exactly what someone is looking for and what matters to them during that buying consideration process, it goes way beyond like there's so many different ways, this is data, is what you make of it. And if you structured and ask the questions in the right way, you can actually build out a journey that massively improves conversion rate because you're literally reading people's minds if you were re targeting someone based on those same properties, the and an ad because they weren't opening the emails and you know, they care about quality. Maybe they get and add that zooms in on the stitching and has like, you know, over latex that says triple stitch for your comfort, whatever it is guaranteed to last however long it's a game changer in that sense of being able to understand and market directly to someone based on what they've already told you matters to them.
[0:26:34] George Reid: I like I like that a lot. Um you're just taking one component and you, You set it up once. I mean let's not pretend like this is an easy thing to set up. It's not well, you know, spend 10 minutes and claudio and it's all sorted. It does take a lot of consideration, a lot of work to make it happen. But so if you've got three questions about what you care about most or three answers, what do you care about most quality delivery? Whatever you could then go, well, here's our quality email that we send out and here with the three reviews that we're using and maybe a picture of the person whatever with their stitching, how much they love it. Here is the one where they talk about shipping arrived next day, couldn't believe it even arrived on a saturday check. You don't need to over complicate things. Obviously you can but that in turn creates a lot of additional work. But it can be quite simple. You just need to sit at it for a while and have your head headphones basically our get out, get after it, it's the in
[0:27:38] Jon Ivanco: and out burger menu simply you make people's choices and the more you can lump people into specific things you can write generally enough in order to get emotions and things across. You just need to be able to bucket it from clean data. And when we this is the big differentiator for a lot of brands is they think they have data and a lot of it's dirty data And when you have 30 data you can't automate if you have clean data, you can automate all day long And you can automate to perfection all day long. Clean data from my experience of using it leads to like 80 improvement guaranteed. Pretty much if you just work that data over and over and over to better understand how to present things. It just works. People are really, really susceptible to feeling like a really good personalized experience is going to solve their problems or help them navigate that customer journey.
[0:28:30] George Reid: Mhm. All right. Let's pivot slightly and go into a similar topic as we talk about the buckets question for you are all customers equal?
[0:28:42] Jon Ivanco: No. They're never gonna be. Everyone's got their own preferences. Uh They all cost a certain amount to bring into a system. And then you're looking to figure out which ones are going to be the best ones for you and your brand. All right. Yeah.
[0:28:57] George Reid: And when obviously you've got richer data, which is clean, you're able to then look at which of those customers are most profitable. Right? And is that short term these make high value purchases up from or because they buy jeans or maybe they've gone, I buy t shirts, but I buy one every two months instead of jeans once a year. Are you then looking at that data and going, okay, well let's focus really hard and getting T shirts in because they're quick. They're cheaper and they're good because they make regular purchases. It's good for cash flow, whatever are you looking at that kind of the decisions they're making,
[0:29:37] Jon Ivanco: what questions
[0:29:37] George Reid: have answered, whose most valuable based on the questions are answered?
[0:29:41] Jon Ivanco: I don't really care so much about the products that they purchase as much. What we care about is the answers that they were given and how those answers correlate to revenue. Um, so if you had four answers, every answer is using the data from, from Shopify in order to figure out and equate the amount of revenue driven by someone that had one of those data points. Now in a vacuum, every data point is going to be different, but really where the power comes in is looking at the combinations of the data points because you're looking for your ideal customer based on the combinations of the data points that they've answered uh to ascertain that hey, if people, if people answer a a B B through our little thing, they're worth more than people that answer a abc. So we want to find more a a B. B people because they're going to be worth more to us a long term. If you want to think about this way. It's, it's kind of like we're tiptoeing around the idea of being predictive revenue based on sign up. So whether or not someone purchases, we can say based on the data points provided during sign up, we can forecast out that they're going to be worth X amount through your flows and everything else over a certain time period. Very kind of like sass like in terms of pipeline and understanding what the opportunities are and how much your pipelines worth based on sign ups with data.
[0:31:10] George Reid: So that being said, if we think we've got got ourselves a winner with an A. A. B B, are we using that to perhaps change some of the advertising we're doing so let's say it's female, a set of mail to keep it very simple, end up spending more on vitamins and they happen to care most
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