James has been building a strong eCommerce knowledge base since his time at Catch.com.au and continues to be leading from the front in the Southern Hemisphere. He is the co-founder of MerchantSpring, an Amazon marketplace solution that supports those listing across multiple channels.
James has been building a strong eCommerce knowledge base since his time at Catch.com.au and continues to be leading from the front in the Southern Hemisphere. He is the co-founder of MerchantSpring, an Amazon marketplace solution that supports those listing across multiple channels.
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In this episode we discuss:
[0:00:00] George: Welcome to It’s Always Day one. My name is George Reid, a former Amazonian turned Amazon consultant. Each week on the podcast you're gonna hear in this tree expert Brando on Amazon employees share There are answers to the basic yet fundamental questions. You should be asking yourself a bag your Amazon business. Now let's jump in. Hey, James Dihardjo. So obviously we've had a bit of a chit chat about some other bits and bobs, and it's obviously great to speak to you again. I think it's being publicly in, what, a year since I last spoke to you. Yeah, awesome. So before we get in, some of the questions would be great if you could give a brief lull introduction to yourself. What background You've bean with regards to Amazon. How long you been this Amazon space? And obviously tell us a little bit about merchant spring Ahs? Well,
[0:00:48] James Dihardjo: yeah, So I guess my back openly by a background with Amazon is it was actually started at the time Amazon went live in Australia. So I do have an e commerce background. I used to work a catch dotcom that year many years ago, and I guess through through that experience 2017 myself and my co founder decided to launch a marketplace management business, which is all about helping our clients, too. And Michael Mayer places into rial sales channels, not just an afterthought regular. So you imagine spring broadly, you know, whilst its goal is to turn my replaces into sales channels, it does this through a variety of means, meaning we do integrations with the continent. Realisation, I guess, is the centrepiece of our business is our SAS Sparta, which we call my place manager. So that helps sell his cell, cross a ll arrange marketplaces or run world. But obviously, you know, Amazon is Amazon and eBay, the key component of the vow of Alsace for rock and our business.
[0:01:57] George: Nice. So I think we mentioned slightly before that in order for brands to really capitalise on on the ongoing opportunity with Amber's, um, it's becoming increasingly competitive. You've got to be using in some shape or form at all. Or a piece of software was something to help manage what you're doing. And that could be If you're looking to sell across different channels, you need it just to make their life a little bit easier or if you're looking to crunch data visualised information. That's where the software is becoming evermore important, right? Exactly. So a couple of feisty questions for you and I'm just going to kind of rattle from the most ugo. First things first from your perspective. What's one of the first things you look at with an Amazon brand? So someone's coming a new clients. If you're looking to assess a brand, what one of the first things you go and look at?
[0:02:53] James Dihardjo: Well, is this about if they have a preexisting brand or they're looking to launch it on the on the start from scratch?
[0:03:00] George: Sure. So let's say, for argument's sake, the already on Amazon they've already launched is some capacity. What do you what do you immediately going to?
[0:03:08] James Dihardjo: Well, George, the first thing I think that is the content. I think you know, from our perspective, the content is the baseline of your future success. I mean it. It impacts everything from the invisible and search results to, you know, the effectiveness of your ad campaigns. I mean its content, you know, in our experience, the more enriched content is, the better. You know better the product can perform. So the first thing you look at its content quality on DH, then you like. It's talking about it in an Amazon specific sense. It's about how much of the Amazon content leave is, or fields or whatever it is it's available to them that they're actually using. I think that
[0:03:55] George: isn't that something. You make a good point there. There's lots of levers and pillars you can be pulling up capitalising on, and we certainly whenever we're looking and reviewing or assessing a brand we're looking at how many of them we're actually taking off. I think you see it far too often where people just go with the basics like our car got some images on there. I may be gone a couple of bullet points, but I'm not utilising a plus or I'm not capitalising on back end search terms for argument's sake, no matter how important or the waiting off that lever, it's still a lever that you could be pulling right
[0:04:30] James Dihardjo: exactly, and I think you know what I experience a lot of the time when people have underperforming Amazon channels. Often, if you go back to the real world basics the contents not right, or it's not. Respect my understanding.
[0:04:42] George: Yeah, And as it gets more and more competitive, you you know that someone in your niche is ultimately going to be creating content that is better, more engaging, more enriching, invokes more emotion than what you're doing, which is always going to leave you leave you kind of second choice, a bit of a beater option. So it's a massive component that people need to get right? OK, so other question right now, what do you think? The biggest threat to an Amazon businesses right now, it's a general kind of view to any Amazon business.
[0:05:16] James Dihardjo: Will answer this primarily, you know, with an Australian answer, right? Oh, sure. Right now, what we're seeing is the biggest threat on Amazon. Business is being distracted, right? What I mean by that is, you know, if you're a marketplace, first business in your own catchy very names on your capture count might be doing way more than Amazon. Let's be honest. I mean that the audience is different and saying with the eBay account, it might be doing, you know, they have again. Let's be honest, that even site traffic is much higher than Amazon Australia. So then, you know, if you're a seller just thinking, you know, I'm gonna go on Amazon, I'm gonna try it, and I'm gonna give it a fair crack. But then you get distracted by the fact that you even accounts doing way more sense, catch a counselling way, well, cells. And then you just don't put any effort in and then going back to our first question, George, it's just chicken flick on all the Amazon stuff, and we're never going to get anything out of it. And and I honestly see that that is, is the biggest threat to an Amazon business in Australia right now.
[0:06:23] George: Just not giving it the focus it deserves as well. A cz. There's so much stuff other going on over there like I know what I spoke to Ben you the week he said, You end up doing half a job on a number of different things, rather nailing one. And his argument was, if I just nail Amazon and get that 100% right, then I go workman of the channel or another, another opportunity, Another product. Um, you know, I think you're absolutely right there, and it's the same. I said it with him. It's like focus. Just focusing on those right areas on DH. No doing, you know, a little bit now and then come back to in a few weeks, really kind of doubling down on that one. Challenge assuring you nail it, right?
[0:07:02] James Dihardjo: Yeah, exactly. Think it's it's not gonna do. The other thing is people think it's Ah, it's an overnight thing that they put in all this effort and then it should just be, you know, parents it over. Not the answer is no. I mean, some of the most successful cells with worked with have now did before Amazon even turned on like that were one of the cells that have an account before Amazon. Turn on this rally Now, Dan A ll the content and along the journey of straight ems, Australia's releasing different features like a plus FDA. They have they have taken it up on like the day that it's been released and take that box to the maps. And now they are the number one bestseller in that category. And I was on choice Pageant's on. So what I'm saying is you can't get these Reese to sell, like then, is how they got distracted by eBay or catch, you know, the Amazon situation will be wailing. Right thigh sense.
[0:07:56] George: Yeah, I think it's obviously you and I both know features typically goingto be rolled out in the US first, and that's always been the case when ours Amazon friends Ah, lot of our audience within the Academy are UK based, and we'll continue toe educate them on what's happening in the U. S. Granted, there's a bit of upset when I say, Listen, there's this new feature called Bundles at the moment, make it. It's not available to us yet, so we don't really care about that right now, but I think it's so important to know what's coming. So it's a plus launched in Australia for you to know exactly what Oh pluses. No, what makes good a plus? No. Why a pluses important and have essentially the modules. They're ready. So as soon as it's there with a one click, you're implementing it and your capitalising on the opportunity, and it's again, and that the lever is that marginal gain that I always refer back. So if you're getting distracted by cat. Try argument's sake, and you are making more revenue from it. And you're not keeping your ear to the ground with Amazon. When these little launches come out like a plus, I think it's a plus plus or a plus premium. When that released reading recently for some vendors like they're jumping on it immediately. Are they going to see such great results from it on the building? Building up that flywheel Amazon? And once it gets to a certain point like that, Amazon's choice magic mentioned Once you've secured that, it can be quite difficult to take it away unless you got very deep pockets.
[0:09:25] James Dihardjo: Yeah, great point.
[0:09:28] George: Okay, awesome. So next to point with B, let's have a serious question. Traffic. Which one works? Well, what bad recommendations do you hear in your area of expertise?
[0:09:40] James Dihardjo: So little question, Judge, I feel we'll say, um, you know, I hear people say you have content for your product. You know there's no point redoing it family or there's no point redoing it for, you know, Marketplace X, that is possibly the worst adviser That sounds brutal, that each channel, and specifically Amazon needs tto have you can't just re use your time using website conscious, you know, just reuse all the things you've got for other other talents you have tto curate and make it, you know, optimised. I mean I don't like is that we're too often that make it foetal the things that Amazon wants to see, right? So I hear that a lot of just use your content you got get it up and then go Well, that's not gonna get us up. I mean, that leads back and thought we were discussing before Jewel of which is a sub par content. You know, a lot of the time as a result of this, this approaching this advice that, you know, circular. I mean, you know the number of reasons what happens with that. That's probably the West thing of her.
[0:10:49] George: I think a lot of people g Oh, well, the website's doing pretty well right now. The images are working just fine there. I don't need to redo them. Fram is in, but then they're not factoring in that. When someone's on your website, they could be you could make the lots of sales for a particular product, but you haven't got any other competitors that now set your product the long sides and competition. Does your constant still look great on the same? Also goes of kind of algorithms like Amazon's. A nine algorithm is going to be completely different to catches algorithm or eBay's algorithm. They're gonna have similarities. But if you're no approaching it going right, let's do unique keyword research for Amazon, Australia, Israelis, Amazon, US, and construct our titles accordingly. Then you're no kind of going all in and and you're not going to see the results, like what key words being searched on eBay. And I've literally got no idea about eBay. I don't even know what this Key West was it. I'm just assuming that raise for what she was going on. There are going to be completely different because it's a different customer type than what you're gonna see on Amazon, and that's gonna be the case globally, so you can't just replicate. I mean, don't get me wrong, there's there's some argument that to get going, sure, it's a quick when you want to be on there as soon as possible in the same, So can you want to be on that doing it good job because you have got that small halo effect. When you launch on a platform with a new product, where you gonna get a bit of a leg up? So you wanna be jumping on that and converting as many people as possible, But yeah, keywords, content. And the overall strategy is so true.
[0:12:22] James Dihardjo: And I think your point of that recycling the allergic political re for using rebel Hetty replicated rabbit cooked. They quit waiting. Yes, but you have to have it. If you're going to do that, I agree. You have to be in the mindset. Replication is only going to get me through the week one. You know what I mean by that? What most on then? You really need to focus on, like, you know the audience. A recurring theme in these questions, George.
[0:12:49] George: Yeah, yeah, exactly. That with with the bullet points going, I've already got some points on the website. They do the job, but when your website, you're not thinking about OK, how my waiting these bullet points in terms of putting keywords doors to start. What's the structure of these key words in relation to dress the bullet? So there's lots of different things. Think about that. Okay, Next question. If you could hire just one individual to help the Amazon brand, what with their skill set be and why
[0:13:18] James Dihardjo: George and I are a lot of question is that is not what they do up my mind. I'm my frustration about content. Quality is surfacing in conversation. Good concept. I gotta like it. But I think it's important thing, George on the high one person. In the current climate, it would be someone who is fuelled in copyrighting and content creation specific for Ansel. Like if I was, you know, if I was starting a seller on Amazon, that's the one thing I look at to get my baseline right so that everything else that I've moved on from there is gonna be effective
[0:13:52] George: on Would you favour Maur the copywriter or graphics?
[0:14:00] James Dihardjo: I mean, my god says to sell you the Colorado with Okay, we're research skills, you know, to start with that, I mean, let's say theoretically, be starting a brand you may not have your brand registered. You may not have brand rich, so therefore, kinds brand rich streamed if we can't plus content. That is a scenario right, So a baseline is your starting line really starting Study? Copyright?
[0:14:25] George: I think that's that's not going to just be a great asset and skill tohave within your business. It's just for Amazon. It's gonna be other element. So if you've got a good copywriter, they're helping you with your Facebook ads to make them or engage in to make the reader continue consuming that content and the same you can repurpose that content other social media posts on your website on DH. Then that's all gonna feed into your overall funnel off how you're nurturing people and engaging people on that copyright really got is also going to be responsible for, like, packaging. What are we writing on the packaging? What you write on our product inserts. If you've got very died English in, you know particularly good at writing poetically, shall we say, perhaps you could really lose sight of your brands vision. A message by putting the wrong type of copy was an image you could argue. Perhaps you get away with it a little bit more to begin with, but then again, like in terms of the datas and isn't the data showing a lot off. The conversion is based on the images on Amazon.
[0:15:27] James Dihardjo: Yeah, that's true. I mean, it's then that the counter right now would be if you hire someone is good. It's like if you had the finances, just a high one person and you know you leave. You hired that photographer in the graphics person. They can't do any copyrighting like, you know, that zest to trade off right so you'd have a hard question to answer is just who would I hire? One person who would be would be.
[0:15:53] George: I think me purse. I'd probably go graphics who worked on the film itself. He might be able to get it depends how you back yourself on what you're good at personally, but I think Mark Brighton would be a right, and therefore the images like I would never clear whether the Star and that's I think I meant about 60 to 70% off customers based their purchase decision on the images, more so than the copy. And then I wonder, you know, I was on my rule of thumb with the listing now is you shouldn't need or the customers shouldn't need to even look at the bullet points in orderto want. Add the product to the basket. The images should do such a job that you don't need anything else, so it's 1st 9 images. If they've seen them, they should be have enough information. Andi confidence to go, had that quality basket and make the purchase. The bullets then come from a CEO perspective, and those kind of final people are sound defence. So that's the kind of roll with them I work with. So I'd always say graphics, but is tricky, like, ideally, I'd like both, right?
[0:16:54] James Dihardjo: Yeah, I think that's a good point to make. And that's a good basic advice. It comes down to your core skills as well. Like if you're really good at graphics and maybe do IRA copy person, if you really were copy many highly graphics first. So, yeah,
[0:17:07] George: if you're not going either than it's just gonna cost you a lot of money. Ah! Ah, okay. Could answer. Okay, So what's the slightly different one here? What's the best £100 or dollars? I use pounds. I speak to U K people a lot. Let's go Dollars. What's the best 100 bucks spelt spent to help your business
[0:17:29] James Dihardjo: business or
[0:17:31] George: your business. My business with your person if that makes, makes it easier for you.
[0:17:38] James Dihardjo: Yeah, best 100 bucks would probably be a good will. Can
[0:17:46] George: search all you looking brilliant today, by the
[0:17:47] James Dihardjo: way. Seriously, it's, you know, talking about your own business. You need to create marketing. You need to create video content. You know what I'm talking about? Like my business and particularly its, you know, we have to do post Wellington and wherever else. And we just think something record videos, you know, screen shares, whatever ITT's pay for itself going,
[0:18:11] George: I think, Yeah, I have the same with kind of the boom that work with now to hold the mic or a camera holder or something. That that I think even if if you're an Amazon facility could have this relate back to me, it can be investing in that small thing, which may be a good camera for argument's sake, so you can go. Okay. I want to do some quick videos on the fly for my my block or something similar, which is gonna make your life a little bit easier, I think with things like posts becoming more common on Amazon now, as that new introduction, I think storeys were becoming soon having that ability to connect of your customers and do it quick, clean, easily. And it be high quality is really important. If you've got a dreadful camera, let me record a quick video to show us packing up some boxes or show us delivering something. It ruins the experience a little bit. They're saying that I do need to go get another camp. So we have triggered something in my head. Interesting one again that starting with nothing but 10 grand. Would you start on Amazon business?
[0:19:19] James Dihardjo: Ah, right now. Today, the answer would be depends on bridge Amazon market you're talking about.
[0:19:29] George: Okay, you're right, you're in Melbourne. So let's say let's say Amazon Australia, for argument's sake.
[0:19:36] James Dihardjo: Honest answer, George. It would be a no if I'm looking just the immediate short term economics off private with the fact that I can see sales performance and jean the traction achieved much who more quickly on other marketplaces. It would be a hard decision to say yesterday. Hands on first, you know, just just off the cuff. That makes sense.
[0:20:05] George: Yeah, without dignity and obviously you're understanding ofthe you bear your understanding of catch dotcom. I guess you would be thinking I could make that tank a work better for me personally on those of the markets. Would that be right?
[0:20:17] James Dihardjo: Yeah, that's kind of the lens Like to give you this
[0:20:20] George: way. If we switched around and said You're not limited by Mark Place, you got tank. Hey, you could get us. You go Europe
[0:20:29] James Dihardjo: with that thin K, I would employ you and then wait Launching, I think.
[0:20:38] George: Yeah, that's a good shout.
[0:20:40] James Dihardjo: I think I'm saying is yes, I'm result for other markets where the Amazon Channel is Moment Chua and developed and has more labours available More functionality. You know Maur ability for you, Pete. The whole country is you know, Gibbs was buying on Amazon in that sort of market than yet. I mean, yes, Amazon would be, but we're probably the first thing to do. Yeah,
[0:21:03] George: this It's interesting what you say about the whole country is behind it. Like for friendly listener shooting in in Australia. That's still that the culture is not there yet. Even for just online shopping or the expectations. I don't think Yes, There the girlfriend ordered some little laptop stand. Then it arrived. Today that experience is common in the UK You expect that next day delivery, and if you haven't got it, that it's a bad point. Where is in Australia? I think it's in. Still not there yet. They don't or you don't I should say fully, kind of appreciate what's on offer, and that's why it's just taking a bit longer to build up speed. Whereas if you're launching a marketplace which is more familiar with that service and expectation is different. And what Ugo, would you go UK because of the opportunity in Europe on DH, little bit less competition? Or
[0:21:58] James Dihardjo: It's an interesting point way, probably UK actually. Well, you care because you mean a very, very high level. George, you and I know that Amazon us very competitive, like this asshole what cottage industry. But it's like I get almost like a get rich quick scheme in the U. S. D. You know, I got my hands on selling in that way, but I feel like, you know, it's Yeah, the UK is yet The opportunity is possibly a broader there. What do you think?
[0:22:30] George: Yeah, I like that. You flip the question back to May. I thought I was the host, but now I feel like I just started facility. Whose forecast is it? So I'm inclined to agree with you. I think unless you've got a good financial, financial backing or a very good product, which doesn't at the moment have too much competition on a very good understanding. Those are the three things you probably need to really make it work in the US in the moment. So unique products and a strong and standing of the system on DH a bit of money behind you. You can't do on a shoestring anymore. In the US, you've got to be able to go in and work rebates, work promotions, work appetising on Amazon as well as social on DH paper software and sold, saying whatever it happens to be, so you need deeper pockets in the US now I think you can still in the UK as your home market, leveraging Europe as your kind of secondary marketplace and obviously summarising secondary, like Germany, France, Italy, Spain, etcetera there. I think you can do it on a slightly smaller budget on DH. There's still so much focus going on in America that people aren't really looking that much in Europe. It's building that, you know, even reading more stuff about how localisation works and we're not just translating content were localising. It would create in the content again for Germany, fourth routes from scratch. People aren't quite getting that yet, and that's no take a while. I think they're stone so focused on running the website cell Shopify sells eBay sales, Amazon sales that the thought post of giving Amazon Germany all right, now, as the second market, Travers and UK people just aren't really doubling down in it. So for that reason, personally you gave me 10 grand. It would be it would be You came or so than us and less. Like I said, I had that niche product which I don't think anyone else had. Yet. Andi could utilise the skill sets that are perhaps got over some others who are just getting staff on Amazon. But this interesting thought boom. Okay, awesome. Now, Tio. Okay. Interesting one slightly different. What do you do at the moment? The handle stress at timing with the lock down. Well, not so much down in Australia, but yeah,
[0:24:47] James Dihardjo: tto handle stress by something online.
[0:24:53] George: That work. Is it the girl from must be stressed over the time e I was just happy, but apparently not stressed over this I Is that okay?
[0:25:04] James Dihardjo: Yeah. You know, Mehlman locked down. What? You know, you can't really go out. You know, Netflix will only take you so far. That was all prime is probably, you know, I've fully exhausted all those things on their prime video, so yeah, I'm just trying. Teo, I don't know, buy like for me because, you know, you and I are in this Amazon industry right away. Colonist industry. I think it's important to just try different online experiences. Like the other day. We bought some stuff from another retailer online. We bought some stuff from Amazon and the experience was interesting was like a leading and I don't know, it's just specks is from the day to day running of the actual business, which at times be quite stressful.
[0:25:49] George: It's such an interesting point is experiment I played with recently as well, where I wanted to start a bit of a YouTube channel around unboxing Amazon Amazon products and seeing how they, each individual person or brand, I should say, treated the customer during that kind of delivery experience where they connect him with me. Where were they sending me afterwards? Were they asking for reviews, The kind of the big issue I had and why I never made the channel? Wass The Australian brands weren't doing a particularly good job of it, and I was like, I've got nothing to speak about. So no, look, it's Australian brands right now. There's lots of you could be doing a much better job of that delivery experience, but yeah, it's, I think it's right, like buying stuff. Looking up different people are doing, as a rule of thumb anyway is interesting and can perhaps distract you. I don't personally buy stuff online for stress relief, but it's slightly different. I think I'd be poor if I did believe that the mother who seems obsessed with it okay, um, his slightly slightly different again. What one thing would you be doing right now to create sustainable success and Amazon like the key that I really want to drill down its there's that, like sustain about success. We can all make quick sales, but how you making sustainable sales. And it was a
[0:27:10] James Dihardjo: tough question. Thank you or talk about a client that we've got. I mean, I won't name them, but their sales are sustainable, meaning that they are. They're not really disappearing. And they've been on Amazon in Australia since 2017 since launch. If anything grown, whereas we've seen sums, it's hard to talk cryptically. But some sellers come into that category and then believe, if that makes sense, maybe because it wasn't sustainable. So the way that they the success factor there, is again coming down to investing. You know everything up front and not make not not not just facing down around me. And the Content Foundation was good, adopting all of the things early, like, you know, like advertising When it when it came out in Australia, they were onto it on Day one Ondas a result like they're now Amazon choice, which means that bean outward like doll down some of the pay staff that they're doing. But inside Amazon and outsider was all and still maintain that kind of organic baseball because that is what I'm saying makes sense like this.
[0:28:24] George: Yeah, Obviously you've got paid and free traffic on DH to a certain degree. When you kick off your relying on pay to get your traffic to the listing and as that organic starts to take over and eat up a larger share of your traffic, you Khun taper down other areas because the flywheels already working right. But then that being said, sure, they can take her it down. But are they doing anything to connect with customers on the back end? Are they doing the thing to collect email addresses? Are they continue to bringing out new products like, Where does this sustainable Adam and come in there?
[0:29:01] James Dihardjo: Yes. So for them that you know that kind of play that you're talking about, which is probably more commonplace in other market, more mature Amazon markets, right? More complex for sellers, anyway, that is something that there is too grappling. So I think I agree with you those those types of behaviours like the after sales experience. It's really, really important to having sustained ones on business, but it's it's only on the raid. Our band was on solos in Australia right now, like it's still trying to understand is that is that you know that thinking through the risks of doing things like that old, they're still thinking through cannibalisation of about the channels and the customers and all these other things, right? So I guess my answer was kind of geared towards the current state of Amazon selling in Australia, and I think your point is really ballot. And I think that will actually come in handy as asking this question may be a year from now, when so is, like, you know, that's the norm. That would probably be my answer. Does that make sense? Yeah,
[0:30:04] George: it does. I think there's a lack of maturity from many brands on how to treat Amazon customers on DH. Why it's so important to build a relationship on the back end as well as beforehand, right. It's not just where we built a relation of the background body and Inter, and offering a warranty or a promotion or whatever the case may be, is also building a little bit Mohr by nurturing but then beforehand so you can create in around better experience. But yeah, I think it would be beneficial for a lot of Australian brand owners to be looking at what other people doing in different markets rather than being pigeonholed and just looking at what you doing locally, Always learning like as a rule of thumb. When I'm telling members of the academy to look for examples of something, I'm not telling them to look at Amazon in the Netherlands. I'm telling them to look at on mature market like the UK or the US, where they've got everything available. They've been playing the game for a long time. What did they do it on? And that's obviously I think, something the Australians concerning Awesome. So second last question, you're allowed one hour a day to master a skill. What skill would you choose and watch?
[0:31:20] James Dihardjo: Ah, I'm gonna answer from a content perspective, George. Ah, think the photography and graphic skills like that's That would be the one of nurture because it's not just usable from within, like answering this from an Amazon. Self speaking, not just applicable from creating content plus content, breast or whatever, that's also bad creating content for your external, you know, customers that you're trying to natural bring down the final two times. Although elsewhere, sir, it's a skill that can be used to blow the Amazon product website or whatever that if I was a small business Amazon self starting today, I'm only trying to nurture that because it is can be quite expensive rightto hire someone and employ the body like Maybe that's I mean, it's not. It's not something you can't learn a timeline there's with nurturing.
[0:32:16] George: What about your yourself is an individual? Obviously your business is different, but just get some insight into what you're thinking of. A personal perspective.
[0:32:25] James Dihardjo: Yeah, things are So what's your old nurture is always
[0:32:30] George: your lab. Our data master this skill. What do
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